DCS: F-14A/A+/B by Heatblur Simulations coming to DCS World!

[Dudikoff]

things could expect to be more survivable back then without the ridiculous isr + pgm capabilities we enjoy today.

 

I'm just trying to say that relying on the GCI to give you a full picture is not a given (based on the events e.g. over Lebanon in 1982 or Desert Storm in 1990 which more or less fit the 'back then' period for the Heatblur F-14A).

[probad]

your argument serves no purpose but to obscure the significance of the fact that it's the doctrinal planners who dictate the requirements of aircraft and system design.

 

they decided that ewr was the primary sa tool for air operations, they don't gaze into the crystal ball for desert storm.

[OnlyforDCS]

Well thats all very fine and well probad, but on how many DCS multiplayer servers have you had effective EWR or GCI coverage?

 

Even on Blueflag it's really spotty and depends a lot on the effectiveness of the person doing the job.

 

Even with effective coverage (or a western RWR) anytime an enemy Tomcat is within 20-30 Nm of your position, and lighting up your RWR you will have to be on your toes expecting and waiting for that active phoenix lock tone.

[Dudikoff]

your argument serves no purpose but to obscure the significance of the fact that it's the doctrinal planners who dictate the requirements of aircraft and system design.

 

they decided that ewr was the primary sa tool for air operations, they don't gaze into the crystal ball for desert storm.

 

That's not the topic here. A simple question was raised regarding the definite F-14 threat identification by an airplane equipped with an SPO-15 whose limited capability was not driven by doctrine as much as cost and technological limitations at the time.

 

Besides, even if GCI cover is available, it's not like it can definitely identify the threat as an F-14 much more than the SPO-15 can.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Dudikoff

[Vatikus]

A question about the Soviet RWRs in the game currently. The most modern one we have is the SPO15 in the Su27 and the Su25, right?

 

In DCS AFAIK that particular RWR can only tell you the type of threat that is illuminating you. It can't discern between the different radars like most western RWRs.

 

So how does a SPO15 equipped plane figure out that it definitely is an F14 out there painting him?

SPO15 should be able to point out radar type.. F14 fall intro a indicator group of F14, F15, F16, F18 & Phoenix missile (similar as US rwr which groups mig29 and su27 family under 29)... you would also get an indication of radar range, ratio of range change and missile launch range... in real SPO15 that is... in DCS we have, of course, nurfed version.

[Dudikoff]

SPO15 should be able to point out radar type.. F14 fall intro a indicator group of F14, F15, F16, F18 & Phoenix missile (similar as US rwr which groups mig29 and su27 family under 29)... you would also get an indication of radar range, ratio of range change and missile launch range... in real SPO15 that is... in DCS we have, of course, nurfed version.

 

According to the Su-27SK manual, it falls into two categories. At medium and long ranges, 'X' indicator will be lighted for F-14/15/16/18 and Hawk SAM. At short ranges, additionally 'Г' indicator will be lighted on for F-14/15/16/18 and Phoenix missiles.

 

But, AFAIK there's only the signal strength indication which I'd expect cannot be directly converted into range without knowing the exact radar type, since I presume their transmit powers vary considerably (e.g. between the F-16 and the F-14).

Edited July 5, 2017 by Dudikoff

[probad]

But, AFAIK there's only the signal strength indication which I'd expect cannot be directly converted into range without knowing the exact radar type, since I presume their transmit powers vary considerably (e.g. between the F-16 and the F-14).

yeah signal strength is normalized.

 

Well thats all very fine and well probad, but on how many DCS multiplayer servers have you had effective EWR or GCI coverage?

 

Even on Blueflag it's really spotty and depends a lot on the effectiveness of the person doing the job.

yes, this is the reality of it, and it is no fault of the design of the spo-15.

 

what a tragedy it is that we are incentivized to work with other humans to achieve situational awareness!

one wonders how we can be so excited for pilot-rio coordination in the same breath.

[Vatikus]

But, AFAIK there's only the signal strength indication which I'd expect cannot be directly converted into range without knowing the exact radar type, since I presume their transmit powers vary considerably (e.g. between the F-16 and the F-14).

We do not have enough data to know how is the exact type treated by the SPO. All we know is that these types share the same light indicator. What we also know from the manual that SPO will inform the pilot that he is inside the missile wez for the type by flashing light on the signal strength/range indicator lights strip. So by these mechanics.. as you said, X -> F, and wez light, pilot can get the SA regarding range. Also by rate of change of these lights, pilot can get SA regarding the closure rate...

Combine that by GCI which cannot be separated for Russian fighter/interceptor, pilot would not be clueless.

[ebabil]

will there be any q2 update or some tease?

[blkspade]

In any server that isn't strictly Red Vs Blue, Tomcats will ultimately just be longer ranged Eagles jousting each other until one crew makes a mistake. Everyone one else with just use/learn Flanker/MiG tactics of beaming until close enough to deploy their own Fire and Forget weapons. This works now against AI tomcats using FC2 physics Phoenix missiles. So the human flyable versions adhering to a potentially more realistic physics model, will probably be even easier to deal with in a fighter. Probably will still be harder in Russian fighters, especially if they lack datalink. AWACS would be completely indefensible though, having to instead fallback to EWR. Which itself would have to be defended against Hornet SEAD strikes.

[*Rage*]

AWACS would be completely indefensible though, having to instead fallback to EWR. Which itself would have to be defended against Hornet SEAD strikes.

 

I dont think this will be the case except against Mig23/21s. Opinions vary in this subforum about the effectiveness of the phoenix vs modern fighters between 'uber missile' and 'meh'. Ill leave it to those more knowledgeable than I to discuss. I think in a hypothetical scenario of 4 F14A/B vs 4 Su27 with AWACS support the Flankers could quite easily use bait and support tactics to deplete the F14s of their 54s. The F14s have limited MRM payloads with compromised multitarget TWS missile support against a coordinated 4 ship of Flankers who have the fuel and payload to play.

 

Either way cant wait to try it out in DCS, from both sides of the FEBA:)

[IASGATG]

I dont think this will be the case except against Mig23/21s. Opinions vary in this subforum about the effectiveness of the phoenix vs modern fighters between 'uber missile' and 'meh'. Ill leave it to those more knowledgeable than I to discuss. I think in a hypothetical scenario of 4 F14A/B vs 4 Su27 with AWACS support the Flankers could quite easily use bait and support tactics to deplete the F14s of their 54s. The F14s have limited MRM payloads with compromised multitarget TWS missile support against a coordinated 4 ship of Flankers who have the fuel and payload to play.

 

Either way cant wait to try it out in DCS, from both sides of the FEBA:)

 

I assume both sides get AWACS in this? Because the F-14 also has fighter-fighter and fighter-AWACS datalink.

 

The biggest problem for the F-14 will be dealing with how everyone already flies, at 2000 feet in the mountains. The AIM-54 will have a real hard time dealing with this because of the super thick air and the messy background noise.

 

It depends on the mission type. In Air-Quake which is 80% of multiplayer, the Flanker will still probably do about as well as it does at the moment, hiding until it can fire it's ET's before rtb.

 

If the mission is more dynamic and flankers actually have to push through a line of of BARCAP F-14 with AWACS support, that's going to get really messy for the flankers.

[*Rage*]

Its not about the ETs (Personally I dont take them against capable competition preferring 6 ERs). Its about depleting the F14 of its 2 54s. Once thats done you have at least twice the payload of faster, longer ranged MRMS.

 

Of course the F14 could take up to 6 Phoenix, but that has its own drawbacks. Really it depends on how the missile is modelled, and I cant answer that.

[myHelljumper]

Of course the F14 could take up to 6 Phoenix, but that has its own drawbacks. Really it depends on how the missile is modelled, and I cant answer that.

 

I would bet that 9 out of 10 times in air-quarke servers the F-14 will be loaded with 6 AIM-54 and 2 AIM-9 :D. MOAR MISSILES !!!

[IASGATG]

Considering how well the AIM-7M performs, I can see why F-14 drivers would want a high phoenix count.

[*Rage*]

To get back on topic, whats the word on the drag and weight penalty of carrying 6xAim54? Is it a feasible fightersweep loadout or more of an armageddon Tu95 swarm deal?

[probad]

cap loadout is 2-3-2 or less. 6-0-2 is literally apocalypse scenario load.

[RaceFuel85]

To get back on topic, whats the word on the drag and weight penalty of carrying 6xAim54? Is it a feasible fightersweep loadout or more of an armageddon Tu95 swarm deal?

 

A 6-0-2 loadout is basically them telling the Tomcat to go out and kill an incoming bomber wave, their survival and coming back without running out of fuel is a secondary priority.

[RaceFuel85]

Keep in mind..a Tomcat 4 ship could really be a handful for a Flanker 4 ship depending on the loadout.

 

If two of the Tomcats were to carry a 4-2-2 load, and two were to carry a 2-4-2 load..that's

 

12 Aim-54's

12 Aim-7's

8 Aim-9's

 

That's a lot of missiles hauled up for the Flankers to handle.

[GGTharos]

All of this is irrelevant to the online death match.

 

People will load 6-0-2, and there's nothing problematic about it in terms of the aircraft hauling all those missiles. The A+/B will feel this a lot less as well. You might feel like you're fighting a clean A, that's how big a difference those engines make.

 

Drag and weight is going to be handled exactly the same was a it's handled with flanker, hog, and 25t pilots: They'll stuff everything that's possible on every pylon.

Edited July 7, 2017 by GGTharos

[probad]

Drag and weight is going to be handled exactly the same was a it's handled with flanker, hog, and 25t pilots: They'll stuff everything that's possible on every pylon.

followed by bitter invectives on the forum about how the airplane doesn't perform as spectacularly as they had read in the books so the fm must be bugged, and the subsequent allegations that the devs aren't being responsive in getting the issue fixed.

[Tirak]

followed by bitter invectives on the forum about how the airplane doesn't perform as spectacularly as they had read in the books so the fm must be bugged, and the subsequent allegations that the devs aren't being responsive in getting the issue fixed.

 

Smart money is on the good players running 2-4-2. You get 2 Phoenix's for range to burn down enemy energy, while keeping the tunnel clear for the best performance gains.

[GGTharos]

They'll feel better right away the moment they take a couple of shots at 30nm and lighten the bird up ;)

 

Though I believe the Sparrow will perform much better once you get into WVR situations.

 

followed by bitter invectives on the forum about how the airplane doesn't perform as spectacularly as they had read in the books so the fm must be bugged, and the subsequent allegations that the devs aren't being responsive in getting the issue fixed.

[probad]

2-4-2 makes a lot of sense on paper but i can't discount the possibility that 2-3-2 winds up being preferable just for the sake of better roll response without forcing you to lose both fangs first.

Edited July 7, 2017 by probad

[AndytotheD]

2-4-2 makes a lot of sense on paper but i can't discount the possibility that 2-3-2 winds up being preferable just for the sake of better roll response without forcing you to lose both fangs first.

 

Do you mean 2 AIM-54s, 3 AIM-7s, and 2 heaters?