Rudder pedal axis inversion and strange habits

[DracoLlasa]

Hello all,

I just received my Saitech Combat rudder pedals and when i started using them the strangest thing happened. I found that i was fighting muscle memory that i shouldn't have.

I have never had pedals, and i have i have only ever flown a real plane once (a discovery flight at a local airport). So with that, i should not have any muscle memory or instinctual movements in my legs for right or left. However the strangest thing happened.

 

When i thought about it, and wanted to turn left i would push the left pedal, and same for right. But later in my taxi's, and first couple flights i found that when i pushed the pedals while not thinking about it (multi-tasking) i seemed to instinctually push the right pedal to go left

 

i have read a few threads on this, and it seems that the proper setup for the rudder pedals (Joy_RZ) axis to NOT be inverted so the default left is left and right is right seems to be correct.

Validation on this point would be welcome.

 

I wonder if im alone in this anomaly with the instinctual inversion.

I was trying to think of why i had it and the only thing i can think of is that i have always used my stick twist for rudder.. to rudder left i twist left.. but when i thought about it... what happens when you twist left... the right side of the stick twists away from you and the left side comes towards you.. if you apply that to pedals, going left would be pushing the right pedal away from you... so MAYBE that is why i have this instinctual or muscle memory movement? who knows. just wondering if anyone experienced this.

 

That said, i think i confirmed this in reading a couple threads, but i want to make sure.. so i can fix any bad habits now.

So to be clear, to apply left rudder (turn left), the correct action is in fact to push the left pedal away from you... and for right rudder (to turn right) it would be to to push the right pedal away from you.

 

sorry if this is silly, it just seemed like a strange thing to me and wanted to post something.

 

Edit: i just realized this may be the wrong forum

Mods, please feel free to move this to the: http://forums.eagle.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=96 forum if apprpriate

Edited April 22, 2015 by DracoLlasa
udpate

[ctguy1955]

I can totally agree with everything you said and felt. Good Point.

[DracoLlasa]

well thank you for confirming im not the only one that encountered this.. it was rather strange realization. :)

[cichlidfan]

That said, i think i confirmed this in reading a couple threads, but i want to make sure.. so i can fix any bad habits now.

So to be clear, to apply left rudder (turn left), the correct action is in fact to push the left pedal away from you... and for right rudder (to turn right) it would be to to push the right pedal away from you.

 

Correct.

[DracoLlasa]

Correct.

 

Ok thanks i will make to set it back.

yesterday i had set the axis to 'invert' and found it more natural for some reason.

But as i said, the last thing i need to to develop bad habits. Not that im gonna be flying real planes or anything, but in a real plane you cant just invert the pedal with a check box so good habit are important.

[NeilWillis]

Yep, counter intuitive, but entirely correct. You'll also find the brake axis may be reversed, so you release the brakes by pressing the pedals. That is of course incorrect, and can be corrected just by going to the axis settings for the controller, and selecting the invert check box.

[DracoLlasa]

Yes i found the brake one and correct that real quick

I also found that using toe brakes on the A-10 is really hard. as it hard to apply even pressure to both.

Its a bit off topic, but in real A-10's do they only have a left a right separate toe brake for their brakes? and they have to learn to apply even pressure? or is there common "brake" ability that applies pressure to both/all brakes

[escaner]

Your "muscle memory" makes sense when you think how the steering wheel in a bus moves or in the movement on an axis between your feet. No doubt that would be more intuitive.

 

But pedals in aircraft do not work like that. Don't worry, you will get the hang of it pretty soon. ;)

[DracoLlasa]

yea i figured thats why it 'felt' a bit more natural, but wanted to get confirmation so i can correct it as needed. I can say that i never really focused too much on the rudder in planes, mostly choppers. I got these mainly cause i started using the WWII planes and others like the Sabre, and MiG-21 and thought hey be good, especially with the toe brakes. But i can see how much better turns can really be with proper rudder input and a well coordinated turn so i think it will be better overall.

 

Also figured it would make my 3 helicopters more controllable (wrong, still a lot to get used to there too).

Im still glad i got them, i just didnt expect as much of a learning curve

[cichlidfan]

I am not saying this is the reason, but given that the Wright brother's aircraft was flown while laying face down and controlling rudders with the feet, it probably felt more natural to push with the left, to go left.

 

My two cents... :)

[DracoLlasa]

It so strange how the brain works.. Habits formed with your fingers (slider) or wrist (twist grip) are converted to leg/foot actions.

 

Well thanks for confirming im not a freak (well at least about this) and that i have to break these bad habits. Hopefully i can do that quickly.

[escaner]

I am not saying this is the reason, but given that the Wright brother's aircraft was flown while laying face down and controlling rudders with the feet, it probably felt more natural to push with the left, to go left.

 

The Wright Flyer controls were no like the ones in modern airplanes. They used a stick to control pitch (that is similar), and leaning their hips left and right they controlled wing warping for banking and rudder for yaw at the same time, as they were synchronized. No controls at their feet.

[cichlidfan]

The Wright Flyer controls were no like the ones in modern airplanes. They used a stick to control pitch (that is similar), and leaning their hips left and right they controlled wing warping for banking and rudder for yaw at the same time, as they were synchronized. No controls at their feet.

 

Ah well, it sounded good for a moment. :)

[Shmick]

Yup! I instinctively rudder exactly the wrong way taxiing, like you're describing and had wondered the same thing.

 

My theory is that I'm pivoting my body to face the direction I want to go...? Using head tracking too, perhaps that makes a difference.

[SharpeXB]

I assume the rudder pedals are this way because in the older cable controlled aircraft a cable is attached directly from the foot bar to the rudder. Push the right foot forward, the right side of the rudder comes forward. Makes you turn right. Simple as that and it was never changed. Aircraft didn't have brakes back then but it makes even more sense with those. Step on the right brake and you turn right.

[Deezle]

It also felt backwards to me at first too, after a couple months I've got it down mostly but sometimes I'll still brain fart and push the wrong pedal.

[DracoLlasa]

well thank you everyone again for the feedback and shared input.

I will be starting to the process to re-train the brain on which pedal to use

[PFunk1606688187]

I assume the rudder pedals are this way because in the older cable controlled aircraft a cable is attached directly from the foot bar to the rudder. Push the right foot forward, the right side of the rudder comes forward. Makes you turn right. Simple as that and it was never changed. Aircraft didn't have brakes back then but it makes even more sense with those. Step on the right brake and you turn right.

 

Even if thats the case I think it makes good sense in flight to counter the natural adverse yaw from banking by pushing rudder in the same direction as the bank (step on the ball) than to have to do it with opposite foot.

 

You're already pushing the stick right to roll right. If humans have issues making parts of their body do opposite things it seems to be natural to have blended inputs to the same side. Obviously to a novice it makes little sense on the ground, but in the air it should seem a lot more natural. Thats my logic anyway.

[Don_Vito]

Just reviving this thread form the dead, but I found exactly the same 'problem' today when I got my first set of rudder pedals - this was flying the UH-1H but I think the same argument applies. It was the pedal animations that sold me on this 'reversed' pedal issue. I was fighting against a muscle memory that was a false assumption my brain had made. 

I've gone from relatively competent using a wheel on my throttle to complete beginner using pedals. Time and practice will heal this, but an interesting insight.