Mising ammunition type in the ammuniton belt

[Solty]

I have noticed that only Tracer rounds make the "flash" when they hit the target. I watched enough videos of WW2 P-51 and P-47 gun camera footage to know that something is missing. I have checked the "aircraft_gun_mounts.lua" and found out that the ammo belt is filled with only AP and ocasional APIT bullet.

.lua file content:

function p51m2(name,rate_setting,mix_setting)

gun_mount_templates[name] =

{

gun = dbtype("wGun",

{

max_burst_length = 500,

rates = { rate_setting or 800},

recoil_coeff = 0.7*1.3,

});

supply = ammo_supply_mixed({

mixes = {

mix_setting or {1,1,1,2},--Combat Mix 3xAP + 1xAPIT

{1},--AP only

{2},--APIT only

},

shells = {

shell_ref("M2_50_aero_AP"),--AP

shell_ref("M20_50_aero_APIT"),--APIT

 

}

 

});

drop_cartridge = cartridge_50cal;

 

effective_fire_distance = 1200;

}

end

 

p51m2("M_2_L1",798,{1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2})

p51m2("M_2_L2",800,{1,2,1,1,1,1,1,1})

p51m2("M_2_L3",803,{1,1,2,1,1,1,1,1})

p51m2("M_2_R1",797,{1,1,1,2,1,1,1,1})

p51m2("M_2_R2",801,{1,1,1,1,2,1,1,1})

p51m2("M_2_R3",804,{1,1,1,1,1,2,1,1})

The standard load from 1943 usually contained API M8 ammunition type with APIT M20 rounds. Some ammo belts were composed of only API ammunition.

 

The main purpose of API is that when it strikes it makes a clearly visible flash, that tells the shooter he is hitting the target, it also ignites flammable parts of the airplane (fumes in fuel tank, ammunition, engine etc.)

P-51 pilot and ace Richard Peterson explains:

(their ammunition was API and every 10th was a APIT)

Here are reports from different P-51 units(check ammo used part):

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/352-halton-27nov44.jpg

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/4-grounds-19july44.jpg

 

As visual proof two video compilations that show, the use of API, hits are clearly visible due to the flash that .50cal API ammunition makes when hits the target.

This is official propaganda that states at around 15min15sec into the video:

"The Armor Piercing Incendiary .50cal amunition makes a flash when it strikes and how it strikes"https://youtu.be/HB2ntxv9_50?t=14m53s

 

This is a video compilation of gun cams, showing the of .50cal API ammo usage.

 

 

 

 

Thus, AP ammo should be switched to API ammunition.

 

Also, graphical effect needs to change to look more like a flash than a "puff of smoke" as it is not representative of standard USAAF WW2 ammo belts and hits that they made.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Solty

[otto]

otto approves.

 

8.58 that's something that should be in DCS.

 

I Think there should be an option to choose ammo type for all ww2 planes.

 

Aces could customize their planes for example Adolf Galland chose to have a 109 f with large caliber mg's in place of the 7.62 ones.

[AceRevo]

otto approves.

 

8.58 that's something that should be in DCS.

 

I Think there should be an option to choose ammo type for all ww2 planes.

 

Aces could customize their planes for example Adolf Galland chose to have a 109 f with large caliber mg's in place of the 7.62 ones.

 

Thats not chosing ammo types, thats changing your guns lol I agree that we should be able to chose our ammo types, like AP or HE only or whatever you'd like, or different kind of preset ammo..... But changing your guns? nope, everyone would ofc chose something greater then 7.62 ;)

[NineLine]

otto approves.

 

8.58 that's something that should be in DCS.

 

I Think there should be an option to choose ammo type for all ww2 planes.

 

Aces could customize their planes for example Adolf Galland chose to have a 109 f with large caliber mg's in place of the 7.62 ones.

 

So you are as good as Adolf Galland? :)

 

@Solty, I'll look into it and see if there is a reason they picked this mix.

[fastfreddie]

I'll have the find the video but one Mustang pilot said they would have a part of the belt (10 rounds or so) near the end that was straight tracers to give them an indication that they were about out of ammo. I doubt that DCS will go that in depth but it would be nice for P-51/P47 pilots.

[GrapeJam]

API was found to be the most effective type of ammuntion used by the Browning HMG, so currently the Mustang's missing a big chunk of it's damage.

 

Also I've love to have the ability to customize your belt, you can also see reports of pilot loading nothing but incendiary rounds into their guns.

Edited May 15, 2015 by GrapeJam

[[DBS]TH0R]

API was found to be the most effective type of ammuntion used by the Browning HMG, so currently the Mustang's missing a big chunk of it's damage.

 

Also I've love to have the ability to customize your belt, you can also see reports of pilot loading nothing but incendiary rounds into their guns.

 

There are also accounts on pilots not loading tracer rounds - helps if you miss when jumping the opponent. :)

 

+1 for belt customizations, but like convergence thread a while back - on historical level.

[Solty]

@Solty, I'll look into it and see if there is a reason they picked this mix.

Thx

There are also accounts on pilots not loading tracer rounds - helps if you miss when jumping the opponent. :)

 

+1 for belt customizations, but like convergence thread a while back - on historical level.

 

Sure, give us presets. If I am not mistaken we can change ammo loadout for MiG21bis and A-10 right?

 

So that script should already be in the game. EDIT: I was right

Edited May 15, 2015 by Solty

[Echo38]

API was found to be the most effective type of ammuntion used by the Browning HMG, so currently the Mustang's missing a big chunk of it's damage.

 

Because of this, IIRC, it was more or less the standard round for the Browning .50 [nods]

[NineLine]

I'll ask, does anyone have anything on break down of ammo mixes based on mission type, historical references?

 

Thx

 

 

Sure, give us presets. If I am not mistaken we can change ammo loadout for MiG21bis and A-10 right?

 

So that script should already be in the game. EDIT: I was right

[msalama]

So you are as good as Adolf Galland?

 

Hey, back in the day flying another sim EVERYONE was as good as Galland - and the devs were the only party making mistakes :D

 

Anyway, if the belting is wrong, by all means give us a historical loadout at the earliest possible opportunity. I approve too since I'm at least as good as Galland ;)

[NineLine]

I approve too since I'm at least as good as Galland ;)

 

Arent we all :)

 

I am looking at the mixes for all the WWII aircrafts, so once I can be sure I have good historical data I can approach them about using the most common, as well as a feature request for different mixes if appropriate.

[GrapeJam]

In this pic we can see nothing but API being loaded (identified by the silver tip)

[Solty]

Red tails had those too :) API and APIT

The desciption reads: "An armorer loads armor-piercing, incendiary and tracer 50-caliber bullets into a P-51 aircraft flown by Tuskegee Airmen in Italy in 1944."http://ucrtoday.ucr.edu/9991

P-38 with API ammo belts for 12,7mm guns.

Another P-47

Mostly API and it might be tracer judging after placement and colour.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Solty

[Solty]

So I've been reading more about ammo for US airplanes.

 

There were different belt configurations, but most used were two main configurations for Fighter planes. Before march 1944 was:

https://html2-f.scri...-e8bc9de163.jpg

AP-AP-I-I-IT

M2-M2-M1-M1-M1 tracer

 

Then since March 1944 M8 rounds started to appear. First only used by the aces and suqadron leaders. Later, by all other pilots.

 

https://html1-f.scri...-c315e85f21.jpg

Standard packaging of those rounds were

API-I-API-I-APIT

M8-M1-M8-M1-M20

Both standard ammo boxes, just M10 instead of M20.

 

 

 

Other rounds mentioned are M10 tracer and M23 Incindieary. M23 was used since German Jets were coming into the fight. M23 was even better with the ability to set fire than M1 round.

Due to introduction of M23, M1 was some times completely swapped.

API-I-API-I-APIT

M8-M23-M8-M23-M20

 

Stll even though these were the standard loads they were often changed by the pilots themselves. The proof is in the pictures in posts before.

 

So there was a high probablity of M8 only and 9xM8-1xM20 ammo only belts like Richard Peterson haved said.

 

I would still suggest AP to be switched to API only and then later other belts could be added. That is because only one round would have to be created and later on other standards could be added as options to be taken.

 

Nowhere though was a single mention of M2 (AP) and M20(APIT) only round belts.

 

References:

http://pl.scribd.com...Browning#scribd

http://www.crazyhors...C/P-51BC_03.htm

Edited May 20, 2015 by Solty

[Hubert Bigglesworth]

Hi.

 

Big +1 to this thread S!

[Merlin-27]

In this pic we can see nothing but API being loaded (identified by the silver tip)

This should be placed in the P-47 section maybe :music_whistling:

[Solty]

This should be placed in the P-47 section maybe :music_whistling:

 

What's the armament for P-47D? 8x .50cal AN/M2 12,7mm

What's the armament for P-51D? 6x .50cal AN/M2 12,7mm

 

I don't see what was the reason behind that comment. :huh:

[GrapeJam]

This should be placed in the P-47 section maybe :music_whistling:

 

Right click -> View image.

[Merlin-27]

Right click -> View image.

 

Yes, thank you for pointing out that it is an incorrectly named image.

 

That is Gabby Gabreski's P-47D. He would not be amused.

 

 

FYI - P-51 wouldn't have 4 ammo bays in each wing.

[Solty]

Yes, thank you for pointing out that it is an incorrectly named image.

 

That is Gabby Gabreski's P-47D. He would not be amused.

 

 

 

FYI - P-51 wouldn't have 4 ammo bays in each wing.

I don't get your reasoning here. Again. USAAF was using the same weapons with the same ammo. I can clearly see its P-47. That doesn't change one crucial thing.

 

AN/M2 .50cal 12,7mm HMG is installed on board, and that means it can use the same ammunition as the same AN/M2 .50cal HMG installed on the P-51. Lower you have pictures of P-38 which uses the same .50cal HMGs +1x 20mm Hispano cannon.

 

But the ammo for .50cals is the same. You are missing the point completely. Do you realy think that P-47s had different ammo, because they were P-47s? :huh:

Edited May 29, 2015 by Solty

[Merlin-27]

Mising ammunition type in the ammuniton belt

 

I don't get your reasoning here. Again. USAAF was using the same weapons with the same ammo. I can clearly see its P-47. That doesn't change one crucial thing.

 

AN/M2 .50cal 12,7mm HMG is installed on board, and that means it can use the same ammunition as the same AN/M2 .50cal HMG installed on the P-51. Lower you have pictures of P-38 which uses the same .50cal HMGs +1x 20mm Hispano cannon.

 

But the ammo for .50cals is the same. You are missing the point completely. Do you realy think that P-47s had different ammo, because they were P-47s? :huh:

 

 

Was I talking to you ever? Nope.

 

Please don't put words in my mouth. If you don't understand a post, then leave it alone. I am convinced after seeing far too many of your posts that you just enjoy creating drama and whine far too much.

 

To break it down for you one more time. That picture named MustangAmmo is a picture of a P-47. Clear? No one is arguing that the ammo belts are interchangeable. Different units did use different loadouts however your point that just because an aircraft has an M2 mean each pilot could choose which rounds were loaded is pure fantasy.

[OutOnTheOP]

Was I talking to you ever? Nope.

 

Please don't put words in my mouth. If you don't understand a post, then leave it alone. I am convinced after seeing far too many of your posts that you just enjoy creating drama and whine far too much.

 

To break it down for you one more time. That picture named MustangAmmo is a picture of a P-47. Clear? No one is arguing that the ammo belts are interchangeable. Different units did use different loadouts however your point that just because an aircraft has an M2 mean each pilot could choose which rounds were loaded is pure fantasy.

 

You may be convinced he likes to create drama, but your last three entries on this thread have all come across as deliberately confrontational, at least to me.

 

Photos were posted that illustrated API-heavy .50 cal belting in USAAF useage, with aircraft that were obviously not P-51. You pointed out that one of them wasn't a P-51. Solty expressed confusion as to why that would matter. Solty seems to have more than adequately understood that some of the pictures weren't P-51s; it wasn't a key point of the discussion; AN/M2 .50 caliber guns in aerial useage by fighters was the larger issue being discussed. An appropriate counter-response would have been more along the lines of "Oh, not saying that those type of belts weren't used, just that the photograph was mis-identified". Misunderstanding cleared; issue done.

 

Now, on topic, yeah, I'm all for customizable (as in, select from a pre-made list of historically valid) beltings. Like what they do with the DCS A-10. Not like CloD. Certainly it's more reasonable than adjustable convergence; custom belting can be done by any idiot with enough of the desired projectiles on hand; you need no tools and no technical knowledge to de-link and re-link .50 BMG (though a linking machine is a lot faster and easier)

Edited May 29, 2015 by OutOnTheOP

[NineLine]

Turn this into another argument thread and I will load up a combat mix you guys wont like... ;)

[Solty]

Was I talking to you ever? Nope.

 

Please don't put words in my mouth. If you don't understand a post, then leave it alone. I am convinced after seeing far too many of your posts that you just enjoy creating drama and whine far too much.

 

To break it down for you one more time. That picture named MustangAmmo is a picture of a P-47. Clear? No one is arguing that the ammo belts are interchangeable. Different units did use different loadouts however your point that just because an aircraft has an M2 mean each pilot could choose which rounds were loaded is pure fantasy.

 

First of all. Clear. Secondly, I don't understand why are you mad at an URL? But I don't want to know the answer. You just came across as very mad that this P-47 pic is in the P-51 section... which was odd and that is why I responed. I made this topic afterall... so I am checking it from time to time.

 

Please treat others with respect. Doesn't matter if it is me or anyone else.

 

I agree that I can be passionate about a topic, but that is because I am very involved and usually speak only when I have the knowledge about a certain part of the sim, but calling it "drama" was completely unnecessary.

 

@OutOnTheOP

Thank you. You caught my meaning precisely.

 

@Sith

 

Yes dark lord:smilewink:

Edited May 29, 2015 by Solty