How to fly against a defense rich envinroment?

[Stratos]

Wondering which tactic is better to fly in a envinroment without radar guided SAMS but with plenty of AAA (including ZSU-23 and HMG) and Manpads and where your objective are usually infantry and the ocasional APC and technicals. Should I keep flying fast and low or better for higher grounds? I think the height to avoid AAA will be too much to affectively found, lock and engage such small enemy units.

 

What do you think?

[Rongor]

I think the height to avoid AAA will be too much to affectively found, lock and engage such small enemy units.

Flying higher is generally better to scan an area for targets. Flying higher means lesser obstacles in your line of sight and certainly a better overview across your sector.

Maybe it is harder then to spot that one single tank hiding somewhere, but do you really want to discover it while flying low around the next house corner?

You can and should use your camera to scan an area for targets, from a safe spot some miles away downrange.

If you don't have to fear SAMs or enemy air patrols, you surely would go in "high". Fly above 5000 ft / 1500 meters and you will be pretty much safe from AAA. These numbers can vary a bit upwards to around 7000 ft.

If an AAA engages you, shots might be quite inaccurate, giving you the opportunity to spot the AAA. Which might have been difficult while flying ground hugging...

[Stratos]

With the Ka50 black and white camera I think it not be easy to spot such small targets. But what about weapons? I'm talking of a COIN style envinroment here, gun and rockets only, no missiles, that height will be too much to be effective, right?

[StrongHarm]

I like to mark possible choke points on the ABRIS before the mission... places I'm going to want to avoid. I also make a red line mark 10km+ from my target on the ABRIS. This gives me a visual reference for the likely 'threat envelope' and where I should start searching for targets and begin ingress. I bring my airspeed down to about 20-50kmh and set trim to move in a diagonal toward the target. This gives me time to mark/spot targets from a high standoff (LRR) from IP without getting nailed easily. Once I get a threat picture and target visual.. then I run in.

 

EDIT: I should expand on LRR and target marking.. if you're in a high standoff and you spot as many threats as you can and mark them with datalink (or set target in PVI), you can later auto slew weapons to those targets. Here's more info http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2246014#post2246014

Edited May 14, 2015 by StrongHarm

[karambiatos]

Teamwork is key, and taking it slow and methodical.

 

Flying low or high depends on the defenses and your play style (it's a game after all, the key is to have fun).

 

However being too high up is detrimental, it'll be harder to see things out of the cockpit, since the ka-50s built like a tank, and the shkval doesn't work so well when you look down, since the zoom is quite high, as well as when you get shot at by something there will be no cover anywhere.

 

You can look at it like this, to play successfully, think of how the infantry would move always, moving from cover to cover, and always scouting out the location where they are going to move to, using bounding, yada yada.

[Rongor]

With the Ka50 black and white camera I think it not be easy to spot such small targets. But what about weapons? I'm talking of a COIN style envinroment here, gun and rockets only, no missiles, that height will be too much to be effective, right?

Generally spotting small targets isn't easy. To fight this fact with going closer by flying low is a wrong conclusion. You don't improve your search by going in low. On the contrary. Your awareness greatly suffers from increased blocking of LOS and also you decrease your ability to actually notice something due to your higher angular speeds when passing a potential target.

 

Don't depriciate your E/O sights. While doing so, you deprive them of their main purpose. Black and white is how it's done, also with the TGP of your DCS:A-10C and in the real world with most drones, targeting pods and also in law enforcement.

 

If you want to do surveillance and search for targets and threats, you will do it high, to gain the maximum efforts out of this nice equipment.

 

Aircraft and especially helos going in low is mostly found in action movies, because it looks cool of course. Other than that, you don't gain anything.

 

I wouldn't go in low, as long as I can not be absolutely sure about the absence of potential threats or as long as I don't face serious air threats I would prefer to hide from.

 

If you scouted your target zone enough to be almost certain where your potential threats are located, feel free to descend while doing some attack runs, but always climb when egressing.

 

Staying low will not only endanger you but again, you also won't receive any advantage of awareness by it but sooner the contrary.

[Tombstone]

Aircraft and especially helos going in low is mostly found in action movies, because it looks cool of course. Other than that, you don't gain anything.

 

You gain cover from enemy fire, also even if helicopter is in LOS, its much less observable against ground background compared to when its "skylined". Flying high sacrifices biggest advantage that helicopter has compared to fixed wing aircraft. Of course when one fights enemy equipped with AK-47 and RPG-7 it doesn't makes much sense to fly to low, but it doesn't mean that flying low is some nonsense that belongs to action movies.

[rcjonessnp175]

I find that odd as most if not all operations I've been a part of have the rotor wing low nap of the earth using it as cover and concealment then conducting pop ups to acquire tgts and engage. To speak on the transport in side of house same thing we always have been flown in low and fast nap of earth style. Guess knowing your environment will adjust such Ttp. I do agree though the higher you go the more effective your sensor suite becomes. I've always been in the mindset in this sim with ka50 to go low and conduct unmasking pop ups to acquire tgts because that's what I've seen done with our American rotor wing gunships. Like anything it's a fluid situation so I can see the high alt scenarios being of use

 

 

Guess it all depends on Permissive vs Non permissive environment.

Edited May 15, 2015 by rcjonessnp175

[Rongor]

Only thing I was referring to was the OP's "defense rich environment". Either get enough intel to rule out the no go areas for your helicopter before diving into that environment or do the scouting yourself. And yes, I emphasize to do that reconnaissance from safe distance.

[StrongHarm]

There's a similar thread going on in the A-10C section. It comes down to having to do unrealistic things because of unrealistic sim situations.. the Warthog for instance would never be used for SEAD. In the case of the Blackshark being in defense rich environments, that's more likely than the Hawg being in one. IRL troop movements are very anti-air aware and capable. So in US helo attacks we use the Kiowa Scout's Mast Mounted Site and Sensor Suite. This allows the Scout to position at a very long stand-off range to spot and designate targets using FLIR and other technologies. In many cases a linked Apache can fire missiles at Scout designated targets from a safe distance while still masked, never exposing line of site to the enemy at all. In Russia the KA-52 performs the same role with a single 52 acting as the "scout" and the other 52s delivering the ordinance.

 

The stand-off popup method is pretty universal. Before I take off I like to place some marks on my AO of likely threat distances, choke points, and more importantly scout positions (usually use this as IP as well). The best scout position is highly elevated and 10+km from the target, with an even higher elevation backdrop.. a tall hill with a mountain behind it is perfect. This way you can have the elevation to look down on the area while performing popups, without skylining yourself. You can do scout, mark your targets, then send in the rest of the flight to drop ordinance, or send in a wingman to do scout and hit his marked targets yourself. See my last post above for designation and autoslew methods.

[King_Hrothgar]

The main advantage of a helicopter in this type of situation is its ability to hover at a safe distance. It may look cool in movies but the reality is charging into enemy air defenses at full speed is basically suicide in a relatively slow moving helicopter unless there is lots of cover for your approach and egress. Instead of speed/altitude, use your main advantage over fixed wing aircraft and hover at a safe distance. Use this safe location to spot targets and get an overall feel for the battlefield. Once you have that, move up and start sniping the most threatening targets or your primary objective with your vikhrs. The vikhr out ranges most SAM systems and all AAA currently in game. Honestly, the biggest threat to the Ka-50 isn't SAMs currently, it's T-72/80/90's with their ATGM's. They are easy to dodge if you see them coming, but they can be sneaky at times as they don't always give a laser warning.

 

If you are up against the longer ranged SAMs, use terrain masking and pop up attacks or simply go around them. In the case of the very long range SAMs such as Patriots and S-300's, in addition to the other methods, you can also get inside their minimum range to gun them. Neither system is able to track a target within 1-2km.

[StrongHarm]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=aviation+standoff+range

[WildBillKelsoe]

StrongHarm, I like the idea of using ABRIS for making lines. To add to you, I always set my wingmen in around a choke point, so that if I get too close, and the unusual Mi-24 pops in, they can shoot it as I run towards the choke point, sort of an ambush.

[WildBillKelsoe]

OP you might want to read this

 

http://www.amazon.com/Gunship-Academy-Maneuvers-Helicopter-Simulations/dp/0874551536

[msalama]

they don't always give a laser warning

Yeah? Why is that? The last time I flew the Shark, which admittedly was ages ago, they pretty much did - though I'm not sure whether the T-90 was in the sim yet then. Has something changed recently?

[rcjonessnp175]

Yeah? Why is that? The last time I flew the Shark, which admittedly was ages ago, they pretty much did - though I'm not sure whether the T-90 was in the sim yet then. Has something changed recently?

 

Well i believe like certain sams you can optically guide the missle aka a like a tow missle. Which i believe was enabled a few patches ago? Hence the no laser warning received.

[msalama]

Ah, that'd explain it. Thanks.

[Stratos]

And how in the world the Hind pilots do their job without missiles? What's the proper range of the S-8KOM and the S-8OFP2??

Edited May 16, 2015 by Stratos

[Isegrim]

There is no best way in general for your Attack with the KA-50. It always comes down to your own thoughts about how the situation looks like.

 

MI-24 s can be equipped wih AT-6 Shturm radio guided missiles.

Effective range for S-8 missiles is less than 2.5km. At bigger distance they are simply to inaccurate.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Isegrim

[StrongHarm]

The MI-24 has a classified and highly effective defense against all known SAM and AAA threats..

The 360° RHBS-CFH

 

Run and Hide Behind Something - then Call For Help! :)

"Помоги мне, помогите мне! Мочи в мой товарищ штаны!"

- StrongHarmovic

 

[Isegrim]

Hey it has an RWR which the KA 50 has not.

[Stratos]

Effective range for S-8 missiles is less than 2.5km. At bigger distance they are simply to inaccurate.

 

Will love to see a doc with the ranges of weapons in game like the S-8 rockets the AT-6 Spirals, and including AAA and vehicle MG and guns like the ones in BTR's and BMP's.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Stratos

[Isegrim]

Why you can easy find out yourself. Btrs open fire at less than 1 km .Bmps at 3.5 with wire guided Atgm and at 2km with Gun. Zsu 23 at 2km . Shilkas at 2.5 km . Vulcan at 2km . Tunguska at 8km with AAM and at 4km with AAG also Roland and Gepards open fire at those distance. small arms at less than 1km . Russian Tanks at 5.5 km with missiles and at less than 4km with Gun.

 

Sorry I am currently writing from smartphone.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Isegrim

[Stratos]

I'm now making a list with the ranges of main threats, IIRC it was possible somehow to add contents to the kneepad, right?

[Isegrim]

A post it on your Desk will do the same jop... :) ohh you will need a pencil or something else to write down things also :)