typhoon vs f-35, who is win?

[shagrat]

The results with the PIRATE plus current CAPTOR seem to be very promising, what I read about was still with one of the first updates of the PIRATE software, I guess current version is even better.

 

I know joint exercises are very usual, but it is bound by safety regulations, often rules and restrictions and following procedures by the book.

The late Typhoon against F-22 mock fight is a typical example. Only dogfight, no rockets thus the F-22 couldn't play their best cards.

Still when the F-22 pilots pulled hard into thrust vectoring to get snapshots they bled energy in seconds and lost to the Typhoons... Now, consider that pilot error due to less experience in dogfight with thrust vectoring, would that happen to the same pilot again?

We never know for sure.

What I know is: I wouldn't consider one of these planes as 'superior' per definition, they might surprise us more than we think, the Typhoon as well as the F-22.

[Backy 51]

What?! We all know the Typhoon would surrender, fly the white flag and return to the hangar to enjoy more wine and cheese. :D

[NineLine]

F-35 regenerates missiles... F-35 wins ;) Source: the interwebs....

 

[emg]

BAE is a good company too.. I'd be anxious to see what kind of 5th gen aircraft they could build.

 

RCS testbed (IIRC)

 

 

This was plan B in case of JAST/JSF cancellation.

Edited June 8, 2015 by emg

[Backy 51]

F-35 regenerates missiles... F-35 wins ;) Source: the interwebs....

 

 

Good one Sith ... we have a winner! :lol:

[Exorcet]

Of course and I agree, but if countermeasures are or become effective enough to render missiles a lot less effective then maneuverability will prove crucial.

A fair point. For the record I don't want to come off as downplaying the importance of agility. I think it is crucial for a fighter to have, but at this stage it might be more crucial in BVR than WVR (depending on the effectiveness of missiles). Maneuverability is all about putting your weapons on target while evading the weapons envelope of your enemy. WVR missile envelopes have grown. On the other hand, speed will allow you to get out of an area before the enemy can react. Even assuming near perfect WVR missiles, the EF might have an edge through better supercruise/supersonic acceleration.

 

 

 

I really wouldn't say that deltas artificially decrease the wing area, delta wings are known for their turning prowess, esp. featuring a flat lifting body.

Not a decrease in wing area; it's that the definition of wing area benefits highly swept deltas because it includes area that isn't wing. Though I went back and looked at the Typhoon and it's not so bad on this plane. Deltas can turn hard because of vortex lift, but it comes at the cost of energy bleed. With LERX's a tailed moderately swept delta or trapezoid wing shouldn't be at a disadvantage and should also be more flexible depending on sweep and AR.

 

But the EF also features some very large drooping & forward extending LE slats, which is supposed to be one up in comparison to LE flaps and conventional slats.

It's probably going to be wing planform that dominates performance, with the presence of canards coming in second. I'm pretty sure that at low speeds the EF's wing by itself is going to worse off than most fights, but at the same time it's very light and assisted by high lift devices so it could yet take the win. My bet is that the EF is most impressive at high speed, but that doesn't make it unimpressive elsewhere.

 

Well an aircraft designed primarily as a strike craft usually doesn't end up the world's best air superiority fighter

To be fair, the JSF was born from fighter programs (especially CALF) and that did continue to influence it. "Strike fighter" is a spectrum. On one end you have the F-111 which isn't a fighter at all, and on the other something like the F/A-18 which was designed off a pure fighter with no air to ground capability at all. The F-35 leans more toward the latter. It was certainly intended to be able to engage in air to air combat and to do it in more than just a self defense role.

[Hummingbird]

It's probably going to be wing planform that dominates performance, with the presence of canards coming in second. I'm pretty sure that at low speeds the EF's wing by itself is going to worse off than most fights, but at the same time it's very light and assisted by high lift devices so it could yet take the win. My bet is that the EF is most impressive at high speed, but that doesn't make it unimpressive elsewhere.

 

The EF features a lower stalling speed than the F-16 IIRC, so I esp. don't see the F-35A standing any chance at lower speed, infact I believe the difference would be quite marked at any speed in an angles fight.

 

The EF simply enjoys too massive a wing loading advantage (not to forget those massive drooping LE slats) in addition to its higher TW ratio that I can see the F-35 come close.

 

Infact one of the most impressive things about the EF during airshows is how well it keeps its speed even during the tightest maneuvers, having witnessed it myself it's absolutely mindblowing and definitely in another league than what I've otherwise seen at airshows.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Hummingbird

[StrongHarm]

And a pitbull could kill a lion because the pitbull has a greater bite pressure?.. this thread is silly. Strawman arguments are fun, but there's a point in which you have to put logic before predilection. It's good that you like the Typhoon, but why is it necessary to reach so adamantly for fictitious reasons why it could destroy an allied aircraft that's of far superior technology? Let me relieve you of your burden; the Typhoon doesn't need to beat the F-35 for you to call it your favorite aircraft.. feel comfortable in your preference.

[Hummingbird]

And a pitbull could kill a lion because the pitbull has a greater bite pressure?.. this thread is silly. Strawman arguments are fun, but there's a point in which you have to put logic before predilection. It's good that you like the Typhoon, but why is it necessary to reach so adamantly for fictitious reasons why it could destroy an allied aircraft that's of far superior technology? Let me relieve you of your burden; the Typhoon doesn't need to beat the F-35 for you to call it your favorite aircraft.. feel comfortable in your preference.

 

Strongharm we're discussing agility atm and what aircraft is superior in this aspect, which would be extremely important in the event that countermeasures become effective enough to render missiles largely ineffective.

 

Also your faith in and fondness of the F-35 is quite obvious, thus claiming that your opinion is superior to mine based on things none of us know the details about is just as much about personal preference as anything else.

[wilky510]

Strongharm we're discussing agility atm and what aircraft is superior in this aspect, which would be extremely important in the event that countermeasures become effective enough to render missiles largely ineffective.

 

Also your faith in and fondness of the F-35 is quite obvious, thus claiming that your opinion is superior to mine based on things none of us know the details about is just as much about personal preference as anything else.

It looks like most people agree with you that the Eurofighter is better. But that doesn't make the F-35 no slouch. But hey, keep underestimating it. That's a sign of weakness.

 

 

By the way, last i checked. They were designed mainly for two different roles. And can't even be compared. If anything should be compared that's in the USAF inventory it's the F-22. And with how quick the Germans were to brag about their victories against the Raptor; i'd say the F-22 is just as good as the Eurofighter in WVR.

[shagrat]

I like this what is "better" argument... As if the capabilities and facts will win a fight.

If we would ask a medieval knight, what is the better weapon an axe or a halberd (basically an Axe on a pole) what would be the answer?

Now we assume one weapon system is more modern, compared to the other. So if we pit a guy with a musket (modern, better firepower) against a guy with longbow, who will win? The musket needs to reload after each shot, the longbow requires good aim... I would say it depends on training and the overall circumstance?

Even if you pit a P-51D against an F-15 the result is most likely the F-15 breaking off, after spending all its fuel in a chase and turning... Yet, the F-15 is definitely the more sophisticated and superior fighter?

I don't know how good AIM-120Cs or AIM-9Ps can track a prop plane as agile as the Mustang IRL, but at least in DCS it seems like a total waste of ammunition, unless you manage to surprise the Mustang...

[tflash]

Many airforces outside the US will use their F-35 multirole, including air defense; the performance will certainly be important, e.g. in the case of Israel, which might be interested how an F-35 would perform against Saudi Typhoons and Eagles.

Besides stealth and agility electromagnetic superiority will be a key factor I would presume.

[Pilotasso]

Israel is more interested in the range of the thing. They have other options for air defence and its not like their neighbours are even trying to play catch up in that arena. Saudi Arabia? unlikely.

[StrongHarm]

F-35 is only going out to limited allies.. and middle eastern countries (other than Israel of course) aren't among them.

 

Again, I think the subject is being complicated far too much. The equation is not complex. I'm sure there was debate over the performance deltas between the F-15 and the MIG before Operation Desert Storm.. that debate died an abrupt and final death... as will this one if the Typhoon ever has to face the F-22 or the F-35. It's simply a different generation of bird. I loved my '68 Camaro SS.. but my 2014 Camaro 2SS would spank it every time. It's not just the engine.. it's the enormous gap in technology.

Edited June 15, 2015 by StrongHarm
Added disclaimer about Israel.. even though it's obvious someone would call the comment I'm sure...

[Exorcet]

I'm sure there was debate over the performance deltas between the F-15 and the MIG before Operation Desert Storm.. that debate died an abrupt and final death...

And valid debate it was despite the outcome, because it really couldn't be answered until after the fact. Unknown unknowns and all of that.

 

I think everyone in the thread understands the scope of the argument and the near nill chance of actually being right on everything. It's a forum thread for entertainment and knowledge, there isn't really a need to look too deeply into why the discussion is happening.

[aaron886]

[Emu]

Again, I think the subject is being complicated far too much. The equation is not complex. I'm sure there was debate over the performance deltas between the F-15 and the MIG before Operation Desert Storm..

Mmmmm... I think pilot training and experience is a factor that shouldn't be overlooked. Let's not forget that Sea Harriers beat Mirage F1s without loss in the Falklands.

[Hummingbird]

Again, I think the subject is being complicated far too much. The equation is not complex. I'm sure there was debate over the performance deltas between the F-15 and the MIG before Operation Desert Storm.. that debate died an abrupt and final death... as will this one if the Typhoon ever has to face the F-22 or the F-35. It's simply a different generation of bird. I loved my '68 Camaro SS.. but my 2014 Camaro 2SS would spank it every time. It's not just the engine.. it's the enormous gap in technology.

 

If only it were always that simple, but it isn't, something we've seen countless of examples of in history.

 

It's the electronic systems which are dominating atm, and older aircraft designs have long proven just as capable of carrying & utilizing new electronic equipment as any new aircraft.

That's how the legacy fighters stayed at the top for so long and how they are still extremely capable and a force to be reckoned with.

[StrongHarm]

F-35 Unscathed by Hostile Fire in Green Flag

 

Edit: After some reflection I imagined a debate forming here about the 'questionable honesty' of U.S. Military Officers and Aviation Week concerning the above article. I wanted to preemptively appeal to you to just... don't

Edited June 20, 2015 by StrongHarm

[Exorcet]

The same questions as always apply, what were the conditions? What was being tested? In regard to this thread, how would the EF-2000 have performed? etc. Though I don't have full access to the article to see what it contains in its entirety.

[StrongHarm]

[Tirak]

:megalol: To be fair, probably should have been posted here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=35070

 

Let's be kind and just assume he misinterpreted why you posted the article here.

[BronzeBuddha]

Some people here have the misconception that the advanced avionics as seen on the F-35 can simply be grafted onto older aircraft like the Typhoon and thus negate the F-35's advantage. That's frankly untrue because these sensors need cooling, and internal sensors like those in the F-35 and F-22 are cooled by a liquid system specifically designed with the airframe. You also ignore the fact that avionics and software development takes just as much, if not more time and effort, as the airframe. In fact, this is a problem with the F-22 because even though it has the cooling and space for additional avionics like an IRST and side-looking AESA, its software and processors are too old and expensive to develop and upgrade.

 

Also, some people here seem to think that countermeasure effectiveness turns black into white. Modern SRAAMs with thrust vectoring and FPA sensors can recognize IR images and wreck just about anything if launched within good parameters. Short of DEW, your best bet is to flat out avoid WVR if you can.