FLIR - FPS killer

[Punisher74]

OK. First of all, ED forums usually is really great and helpful compared to other game community and nobody thinks you make this up, or are just picky.

It just happens to be one of those issues that is a real pain in the bum and hard to identify.

So let's try to narrow this down.

 

Considering we have this issue on some nvidia GTX, as well as AMD/ATI Radeon rigs it is unlikely to be just a driver or inspector/nvidia experience setting.

 

As all testers don't have this issue, we can only try to find things all people (with the fps drops on FLIR) have in common and / or differences to systems of people that don't experience it.

 

I guess everybody tried to reduce the settings one by one and back to see if a particular setting/feature may show a relation to the issue?

As we don't have a crash, there is no log etc. that points to a root cause. So a methodical approach is our best chance to identify something related.

 

It would be cool if everybody who hasn't already, adds the specs to his signature (not to boast about his rig, but help getting an idea where to look in case of trouble, or whom to ask as he has a similar PC).

A few valuable info like 1024 resolution for MFDs, only in FLIR mode etc. is in the posts, so does everybody have similar experience (FLIR only)?

Any difference when changing resolution for MFDs?

How much video RAM?

Preload radius in combination with less than 2GB Video RAM?

Any similar virus scan or "Security suite" in use?

Anything else that is special or unusual about your PC setup or that you think may be related?

 

1. A few valuable info like 1024 resolution for MFDs, only in FLIR mode etc. is in the posts, so does everybody have similar experience (FLIR only)?

A. running 512 cockpit

 

2. Any difference when changing resolution for MFDs?

How much video RAM?

A. 2gig on crossfire currently, ordered a MSI R9 390 8gig be here in 7 days.

 

3. Preload radius in combination with less than 2GB Video RAM?

A. 150,000

 

4. Any similar virus scan or "Security suite" in use?

A. Windows Defender

 

5. Anything else that is special or unusual about your PC setup or that you think may be related?

A. No

 

6. DOF

A. Off

Edited October 31, 2015 by raptorsim

[shagrat]

Does reducing preload radius have any positive effect?

By defender you mean the passive scan?

@ all - Does anybody see similarities to their systems?

[Gary]

FLIR

 

Changing preload doesnt make any difference.

 

Today I tried and minimised out all 3 sliders to the far left (clutter, trees, the rest)

 

i.e. the least preload possible.

 

It does of course give you more fps (but more stutter) but the FLIR issue is still present.

 

Instead of dropping from 40 fps down to 20....it drops from 90 down to 70 - the same % drop basically.

 

Seems to be across all sorts of rigs...some with 4 gig...most with 2

No common CPU...no common HOTAS...AMD & Nividia...all sorts of driver versions....its a proper mystery!!

 

(Check Raptors posts...he's done a load of tests)

 

Regards,

 

Gary

[TAW_Impalor]

- A few valuable info like 1024 resolution for MFDs, only in FLIR mode etc. is in the posts, so does everybody have similar experience (FLIR only)?

Only WHOT or BHOT modes and IR MAV give problem. Drop from 90 to 40 in Quick-Easy Fall on active pause. TGP by itself (TV mode) only steals 5 FPS.

Increasing Clutter from 0 to MAX reduces baseline FPS to 75 AND further to 65 with TGP (TV mode)

Changing Visibility Range from Ultra to Low made no difference

 

- Any difference when changing resolution for MFDs?

512 cockpit or 1024 every makes no difference

 

- How much video RAM?

2gig

 

- Preload radius in combination with less than 2GB Video RAM?

150,000 or 100 makes no difference

 

- Any similar virus scan or "Security suite" in use?

Microsoft Security Essentials

 

- Anything else that is special or unusual about your PC setup or that you think may be related?

No

 

- DOF

Off

 

To be fair, I see similar effect in the version 1.2! But my baseline FPS is lower at 60, and it drops to 40 with FLIR+MAV...

 

UPDATE: I also tried all settings at Low/No, FPS still drops from 135 to 62!

flir test.trk

Edited November 1, 2015 by impalor

[Punisher74]

Does reducing preload radius have any positive effect?

By defender you mean the passive scan?

@ all - Does anybody see similarities to their systems?

 

No difference in preload distance and my trees 1500 and grass is at 0.

 

Windows Defender is the virus scan software that comes with Windows.

(I don't browse the Internet on my PC gaming Rig) mainly only DCS and DCS forums and Steam. Anything else I download on my Mac and install.

[NineLine]

Did you guys copy anything over from your 1.2.xx install? Like config folders, anything like that?

 

Have you tried dropping every setting to the lowest possible and see what it does?

[Punisher74]

Did you guys copy anything over from your 1.2.xx install? Like config folders, anything like that?

 

Have you tried dropping every setting to the lowest possible and see what it does?

 

Config files I brought over was mainly logbook files. And missions files so I can upgrade them to 1.5, but the mission editor adds a strange text in the wp names. So upgrading the missions to 1.5 is on hold. All testing mission were created in 1.5. Also I removed the openbeta folder in saved games and tested empty. DCS created a new saved games folder and I then retested same result. So it's not the autoexe file or any other file within that folder. I tried the game at all detail levels. The FPS just increases to max i.e. 120 FPS but the drop is the same about 50% or less dependent on the detail level. If the core FPS is 120 or 90 the drop is still to below 60 the lowest was 14 FPS at high settings with supersampling. 40ish FPS with multisampling at high.

Edited November 1, 2015 by raptorsim

[Gary]

Completely clean install and nothing copied over at all.

 

New config and logbook created.

 

It happens irrespective of of detail settings. As mentioned above...it can drop from 90fps to 60fps with minimum details setting or from 40fps down to 20fps with high settings.

[shagrat]

This is getting weird. I see no similarities on the PC configuration, more the opposite: happens on any hardware from low to mid/high end either Intel or AMD, Nvidia or ATI Radeon.

When I looked at my "older" i7 2600k as a possible difference and checked the CPUs in this thread... Well, bottom line it is unlikely related to hardware alone.

[TAW_Impalor]

I've tried to reproduce this, but couldn't.

 

capped to 60fps in autoexec.cfg. and adaptive vsync in nVidia inspector.

 

Maybe because you've capped your FPS? Also, did you try FLIR or only MAV?

[shagrat]

I tried to measure the drop in fps from TGP IR Mode and MAV, but with the Nvidia G-Sync feature I can only judge by the game internal counter.

I struggle to get fps below 40, even in 4K. So as the average frames are beyond 60fps it is hard to tell the impact above 60fps.

So when I am looking in direction of large city areas a lot of ground vehicles move around with path calculations and multiple scripts run in the background, I can see an impact of about 5-8 fps from IR and honestly I cannot be sure, if it is indeed the FLIR or maybe a few buildings popping up in the peripheral or anything else.

 

I would really like to help and find the cause behind this, but I'm running out of ideas.

I am open for suggestions.

[Punisher74]

I tried to measure the drop in fps from TGP IR Mode and MAV, but with the Nvidia G-Sync feature I can only judge by the game internal counter.

I struggle to get fps below 40, even in 4K. So as the average frames are beyond 60fps it is hard to tell the impact above 60fps.

So when I am looking in direction of large city areas a lot of ground vehicles move around with path calculations and multiple scripts run in the background, I can see an impact of about 5-8 fps from IR and honestly I cannot be sure, if it is indeed the FLIR or maybe a few buildings popping up in the peripheral or anything else.

 

I would really like to help and find the cause behind this, but I'm running out of ideas.

I am open for suggestions.

 

1. What is the load radius of the MFCD TGP, and the MFCD MAV displays in the A-10C?

 

2. What is the load radius of the Blackshark TV display?

 

If it's the same as the preload radius in the options menu. Is it possible that it's causing the FPS drops even if it's above 60 FPS as you received in your tests.

 

In your above comment even though your FPS never fell below 60FPs. What was you starting FPS before you turned on the TGP and MAV without VSYNC.

Edited November 2, 2015 by raptorsim

[shagrat]

The Problem is it is not v-sync, it is Nvidia G-Sync . The Nvidia Driver recognizes a G-Sync Display and "auto-optimizes" for the possible sync rate. As the 4k display manages 60hz max (data transfer) the driver caps the fps at 60hz consequently. So I cannot see how much fps would be possible... :(

For flying this is gorgeous (no tearing, smooth adaption of frame rates at stable highest possible sync rate), for testing this complicates things.

 

When I have managed to get below 60 fps, though there is only a slight drop in fps from TGP IR modes and MAV, definitely not the 40%-50% drop you guys experience.

 

From what I tested in 1.2.x and earlier versions, the TGP at least renders to the same borderline the visual world around is presenting, even with maximum zoom.

I have to verify in 1.5 if maybe at high zoom rates we now exceed the haze...?

[Punisher74]

The Problem is it is not v-sync, it is Nvidia G-Sync . The Nvidia Driver recognizes a G-Sync Display and "auto-optimizes" for the possible sync rate. As the 4k display manages 60hz max (data transfer) the driver caps the fps at 60hz consequently. So I cannot see how much fps would be possible... :(

For flying this is gorgeous (no tearing, smooth adaption of frame rates at stable highest possible sync rate), for testing this complicates things.

 

When I have managed to get below 60 fps, though there is only a slight drop in fps from TGP IR modes and MAV, definitely not the 40%-50% drop you guys experience.

 

From what I tested in 1.2.x and earlier versions, the TGP at least renders to the same borderline the visual world around is presenting, even with maximum zoom.

I have to verify in 1.5 if maybe at high zoom rates we now exceed the haze...?

 

Taken from todays test flight:

CARD 1 SETTINGS: MSI R9 270X 1120MHz 2Gig DDR5 1400MHz --

CARD 2 SETTINGS: MSI R9 270X 300MHz 2Gig DDR5 150MHz --

 

100% 0 mods were used during this test:

 

Crossfire mode is set to Default Mode & I was in Fullscreen mode set in options in game, just not DX11 Fullscreen Mode. With the In Game Setting as they are I was still getting Great FPS. I was getting FPS drops over huge city areas, but the biggest hits were with the TGP and MAV on. Now the final image is my actual in game settings where yes I do lose FPS on both top end and low end, but I have vsync on and the lowest fps hit I see in the Georgia Hammer Campaign is are around 40 FPS with both TGP and MAV. With the no Tree shadows Mod from Mustang. (Please note the No Tree Shadows Mod does aid in FPS improvements by 5 to 15 FPS)

 

 

Game Settings: Tested: (not my Normal settings)

 

Still on Runway (108 FPS):

 

Approaching WP 1 (114 FPS):

 

Activated FLIP and MAV On Targets (notice FPS drops to 57 FPS):

 

Deactivated FLIR and MAV on Targets seconds after above Screenshot: (FPS jumps to 101 FPS)

 

On Prepping to Land (115 FPS):

 

On Final (91 FPS):

 

My Normal in Game settings:

flir-mavtest.trk

A-10C Test2.miz

Edited November 2, 2015 by raptorsim
Adding Links to Images and Test results and Settings.

[TAW_Impalor]

I just noticed a curious fact, maybe it will give a clue to the devs at what's going on. When the MAV and TGP pages are up on the MFDs, the CPU utilization goes DOWN! And so does the FPS... I select some text pages, and the usage, and FPS go back up. Why?? The game is in active pause, nothing else changes. Please try on your PC.

Edited November 2, 2015 by impalor

[Punisher74]

I just noticed a curious fact, maybe it will give a clue to the devs at what's going on. When the MAV and TGP pages are up on the MFDs, the CPU utilization goes DOWN! And so does the FPS... I select some text pages, and the usage, and FPS go back up. Why?? The game is in active pause, nothing else changes. Please try on your PC.

 

I'll definitely look for that when my new MSI R9 390 8gig card get here tomorrow and I have it installed. I wasn't going to upgrade, because I was loving the fact I was getting above 60FPS with my current setup. But I cannot record or stream, with a pair of 2gig cards and maintain above 60 FPS without a hard crash (requiring a reboot). Nothing writes to log files when that happens.

[NineLine]

Please include a track, short preferably of these issues. I just had my TGP on both MFDs and it sat pretty steady maybe a 1 or 2 FPS drop when I moved to a new view, but right back to 60.

 

I dont see anything strange with switching pages. Utilization goes up with TGP on, drops down with them off, or text pages selected.

[Punisher74]

Please include a track, short preferably of these issues. I just had my TGP on both MFDs and it sat pretty steady maybe a 1 or 2 FPS drop when I moved to a new view, but right back to 60.

 

I dont see anything strange with switching pages. Utilization goes up with TGP on, drops down with them off, or text pages selected.

 

Doesn't the track replay based on your cards preformance in regards to FPS or is it just a playable video based on the original players preformance.

[NineLine]

Doesn't the track replay based on your cards preformance in regards to FPS or is it just a playable video based on the original players preformance.

 

Some cases yes, some cases no, but its nice to eliminate it, as well, there is always a chance I can hand it off to a dev and they can run it through a debug version of the sim, and possibly find something we cant see.... its a long shot here, but what have we got to lose.

[Punisher74]

Some cases yes, some cases no, but its nice to eliminate it, as well, there is always a chance I can hand it off to a dev and they can run it through a debug version of the sim, and possibly find something we cant see.... its a long shot here, but what have we got to lose.

 

Nice. The new card I ordered will be here tomorrow night EST. I moved up this upgrade just to test the higher ram, and see if I can duplicate it on a highend card. I'm hoping the frame buffer in lower to medium cards might be the issue, a card with a 8gig buffer I'm hoping will resolve this issue.

 

Another thing I was thinking about could any of the listed items cause it?

1. The amount of the stream processors

2. type of display connection

3. overall GPU processing speeds

 

 

Also Please review the one I uploaded today. I flew that mission I created yet the track file size was so low. I wasn't sure if it was corrupt or ok.

Edited November 3, 2015 by raptorsim

[NineLine]

Ah, I missed that track, will look at it tonight when I get home.

[Punisher74]

FLIR W/TGP and Mav using MSI R9 390 8Gig VRAM

 

Ah, I missed that track, will look at it tonight when I get home.

 

This is getting weird. I see no similarities on the PC configuration, more the opposite: happens on any hardware from low to mid/high end either Intel or AMD, Nvidia or ATI Radeon.

When I looked at my "older" i7 2600k as a possible difference and checked the CPUs in this thread... Well, bottom line it is unlikely related to hardware alone.

 

 

Ok as promised I ran the test today using 1 MSI R9 390 8Gig DDR5 VRAM card. I included in the post a screenshot of the test settings I used. What is not seen is the OC I used.

 

Card Clock Setting:

1180MHZ (above the Factory OC of 1060Mhz, but with in Safe limits of the Card)

1600Mhz Memory OC (Combined is within the 6,100MHz OC card settings)

 

Overall Performance was netter then expected, yet the FPS loss was still there. The mission started out with around 80 to 90 FPS on the ground with a 0 drop in FPS when TGP and Mav was active. Once in the air that was a different story. In the Air I topped out in FPS around 100+ FPS with a FPS Drop with the TGP zoomed out and Mav on of 44 FPS . Once TGP was zoomed into targets with MAV active I was able to maintain a FPS of 66 FPS. See Images Below.

 

Tested in-game settings:

 

Zoomed out TGP with MAV: (44FPS)

 

Zoomed In TGP with filter and MAV: (66FPS)

 

GPU Performance during Test:

a10c-r9_390-test.trk

Edited November 3, 2015 by raptorsim

[TAW_Impalor]

Please include a track, short preferably of these issues. I just had my TGP on both MFDs and it sat pretty steady maybe a 1 or 2 FPS drop when I moved to a new view, but right back to 60.

 

I dont see anything strange with switching pages. Utilization goes up with TGP on, drops down with them off, or text pages selected.

 

Dear SiThSpAwN,

 

Was your TGP in FLIR mode? I attached a track file turning FLIR/IR MAV on and off for a few seconds. I placed Task Manager on top of the game to watch the CPU usage. Hopefully, you'll see what I see: when IR modes are on the CPU usage goes noticeably down! This must indicate some bottleneck causing our FPS drop.

flir test.trk

[NineLine]

I checked all modes, I could not reproduce.

[scheffchen]

but wasnt this quite always a problem since the a10-beta?

TGP and Mav images need extra GPU-computing of the displayed environment (like a second viewport). Hence the fps-drop. And if zoomed out, the field-of-view that needs to be rendered is bigger, so zooming out may cause extra fps-drops..

I thought wags mentioned this some very long time ago...