What happened to the FM in 1.5??

[BadHabit]

The aircraft will make an ugly and unrecoverable stall after u pull some G in a turn at speeds around 400km/h. It's just ridiculous how weird and hard it stalls...

[Andrei]

Oh, stalls. Finally! Looks like they've fixed the old "rail" behavior. You certainly don't(!) want to do high-g turns @ 400km/h in an aircraft with aerodynamics of MiG-21. It can barely fly straight and level at that speed :)

[Vyrtuoz]

I remember reading something about improvements in critical phases or flight (like high AoA). Maybe this is simply the way it is supposed to be…

 

400 Km/h is not so far from the stall speed of the MiG-21 (which should be somewhere greater than 320 Km/h in a clean configuration if my memory is right). I usually pull Gs between 600 and 800 Km/h where the MiG-21 is more in its flight domain…

 

Maybe your aircraft was heavily loaded in addition to Gs?

[BadHabit]

I ll post a vid to showcase what im saying. Yes sounds like normal to stall at 400km/h with a 5-6 g turn while AoA is above 25. but it's hard to recover even in high altitudes. On the other hand i was able to do loop maneuvers while keeping my AoA near 10-20 and managing thrust and g's at 1-5 g with low speeds without flaps help at all

Edited October 2, 2015 by BadHabit

[SpeedStick]

Yep, noticed that aswell! I really felt to difficult to get the thing to spin before.

Im gonna steal your thread real quick I hope thats okey.

Anybody els having problems with the new keymapping system?

Every button is a toggle buton now if I understand it correctly, why?

Some wanted buttons for each state, some wanted TMHog binary-state (the same?) but this

system I dont understand. Not trying to be a dick, I just don't get it.

 

I cant even bind my flaps to anything but the keyboard.

[BadHabit]

It's fine go share, discuss i'm already rendering the video i want to showcase here

[Art-J]

I think I know what OP is talking about, as I just experienced it during the first test flight. The plane does stalls indeed now. However, when it happens, even if You let off the stick, it stays in the the stalled attitude, similar to spin, but not spinning, just dropping with level wings, almost as if it got "stuck" in an neverending stall. Pushing the stick forward allows you to regain control (the plane gets back to sub-critical AoA) and recover, at least at low altitudes.

[Nerd1000]

I think I know what OP is talking about, as I just experienced it during the first test flight. The plane does stalls indeed now. However, when it happens, even if You let off the stick, it stays in the the stalled attitude, similar to spin, but not spinning, just dropping with level wings, almost as if it got "stuck" in an neverending stall. Pushing the stick forward allows you to regain control (the plane gets back to sub-critical AoA) and recover, at least at low altitudes.

 

I've found that the plane will enter a slow spin if you stall it with slip on. Standard spin recovery technique works great- just apply opposite rudder and down elevator to recover.

 

It did lead to an embarrassing moment for me- I was dog fighting an AI A-10 to test out the new ASP features and stalled the plane. Recovered, leveled out, started to regain airspeed... BRRRRT. My poor MiG disintegrated into tiny bits.

[BadHabit]

This is my vid where i showcase what is happening

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igfGZFB3ZNQ&feature=youtu.be

ETA 3 hours

[grunf]

It's definitely easy to stall her now :D. Fortunately, it's also easy to recover, unless flying too low.

 

I don't know whether it's more realistic now or before, but I like how it handles now. I used to ignore those flashing red lights, but not anymore.

[BadHabit]

The stall feels a bit weird for me from couple of tests i did, is hard to recover, it's not a flat spin i manage to pull the nose down and gather speed but it never recovers.. more like a bug off the airflow to the wings..But overall it looks so easy to handle now extremely easy to loop turn and maintain that low speed maneuver..dunno if i like it or not..

[Golo]

Definetly way better than before.

Easier to stall it and spin it but also recover, it even recovered by itself if i let go of controls.

Feels more alive now and no more unrecoverable flat spin to death, I like it.

[ec-swr]

This is my vid where i showcase what is happening

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igfGZFB3ZNQ&feature=youtu.be

ETA 3 hours

 

200 kn?........20.000 ft?........high angle of attack? is normal to have a stall guy

 

 

 

great job Leatherneck :thumbup:

Edited October 3, 2015 by ec-swr

[Andrei]

I apologize to the thread author for initial disbelief. It stalls indeed in a very weird way. What's even more funny is that it will recover in the same weird way. There is no smooth transition between flight regimes, nor reasonable feedback on pilots actions. Stall happens abruptly, followed by the spin. If you correct spin aircraft will simply enter stall, and then using some "magic" will recover out of it :)

 

I believe that this stall reaction is in fact scripted and not a part of "normal" P(E)FM. Look at the AoA meter on recovery. It transitions from >30 AoA to <10 in a millisecond.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Andrei

[BlackLion213]

I apologize to the thread author for initial disbelief. It stalls indeed in a very weird way. What's even more funny is that it will recover in the same weird way. There is no smooth transition between flight regimes, nor reasonable feedback on pilots actions. Stall happens abruptly, followed by the spin. If you correct spin aircraft will simply enter stall, and then using some "magic" will recover out of it :)

 

I believe that this stall reaction is in fact scripted and not a part of "normal" P(E)FM. Look at the AoA meter on recovery. It transitions from >30 AoA to <10 in a millisecond.

 

For me, it stalls in the same manner that it did in DCS 1.2.16, but stalls now occur over a broader speed range and AOA now climbs as speed drops.

 

It used to be that full back stick would cause rapid pitch and rapid increase in AOA at speeds of ~450 kph and less. If you let the AOA exceed ~33-35, it would stall. However, if you used full stick above 450 kph, AOA would settle around 30 units and not increase as speed decreased. If you released the stick and went full back again, then it would stall. This never seemed quite right to me.

 

The current version seems to stall the way I would expect, with the ability to peg the AOA gauge if you are flying below corner speed. If I drop the stick it will promptly recover, but that window closes if I don't release the stick within 1-2 seconds of stall. If the stall is sustained, it can be hard to recover out of. Rudder inputs cause roll-off that can help escape from the stall.

 

It does not seem unrealistic that a sustained stall would lead to the aircraft "stuck" in a nose-up position while it descends.

 

Here is an unfortunate real world example of that exact behavior:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

 

The Airbus A330's pitots became clogged with ice, so the DFCS system changed to a different control logic that did not include an AOA limiter or stall protection. The aircraft stalled at 38,000' with AOA stuck at 35-40 deg wings level and could not recover.

 

It doesn't seem scripted to me, because rudder and aileron inputs change stall entry behavior quite a bit, in terms of entry speeds and behavior after stall.

 

I'm not a MiG-21 pilot, but the newest update feels really "right" based on my readings and it will recover if you drop the stick, but you have to be prompt.

 

-Nick

[Andrei]

It doesn't seem scripted to me, because rudder and aileron inputs change stall entry behavior quite a bit, in terms of entry speeds and behavior after stall.

 

I'm not a MiG-21 pilot, but the newest update feels really "right" based on my readings and it will recover if you drop the stick, but you have to be prompt.

 

-Nick

 

Possibly. I'm not a MiG-21 pilot either, so I'm not pretending i'm right. However comparing critical regimes with other aircraft with more-or-less advanced flight models the way MiG departs and recovers feels very strange. I think the main point is the whole abruptness of the process - at one point you're flying perfectly OK and in relative control and them BANG! Without any warning plane will depart without any chance to correct it. Recovery is the same - you stabilize spin, get some speed but still in a deep stall. And the BANG - and you're flying perfectly normally.

[OnlyforDCS]

Just to pour some salt on your wounds ;) So glad that I have the MSFFB2. Will never go back to a regular nonFF stick, I can fly the Mig (and the other planes) on the edge of the envelope all day long without stalling!

[BlackLion213]

Possibly. I'm not a MiG-21 pilot either, so I'm not pretending i'm right. However comparing critical regimes with other aircraft with more-or-less advanced flight models the way MiG departs and recovers feels very strange. I think the main point is the whole abruptness of the process - at one point you're flying perfectly OK and in relative control and them BANG! Without any warning plane will depart without any chance to correct it. Recovery is the same - you stabilize spin, get some speed but still in a deep stall. And the BANG - and you're flying perfectly normally.

 

We may be experiencing these events differently, though I agree it can be abrupt at times. For me, the MiG-21 never suddenly recovers from a deep stall, I have to do something active to recover it. One thing that helps me is that there is good auditory feedback as AOA increases, especially around 30 units indicated. This definitely helps me to avoid departure. Another element that makes flight very challenging in this environment is the lack of vestibular/G-load feedback - even though DCS has extremely realistic flight models, the lack of complete sensory feedback makes things harder than real flight (I would suppose - I'm not a pilot).

 

I've tried a few driving simulators and it is much harder to avoid deep understeer and severe oversteer because of the lack of steering feedback and vestibular feedback. You are forced to make a judgement based purely on visual cues and these usually become noticeable late in the process of departure.

 

I bet it's the same issue with stall/departure in DCS. Another interesting thing - the onset of stall doesn't seem any more abrupt in the MiG-21 than the L-39, the difference is that the MiG-21 stalls with MUCH more AOA onboard. This probably makes stall recovery a bit harder and means that recovery requires bigger changes in pitch.

 

In any case, hard to know if these characteristics are truly correct, but it does make with MiG-21 harder to fly near the edge, which I regard as a good thing.

 

The flight model is being programmed by an active duty MiG-21 pilot, so I can't imagine there are big inaccuracies. That said, it might be quite hard to judge the complete details of stall/departure sitting at a computer vs flying the real aircraft - there are a lot of missing sensations.

 

-Nick

[Andrei]

Aye. Well, at this point we shall agree to disagree :)

Let's see if there will be more comments on this subject.

[OnlyforDCS]

Just to pour some salt on your wounds ;) So glad that I have the MSFFB2. Will never go back to a regular nonFF stick, I can fly the Mig (and the other planes) on the edge of the envelope all day long without stalling!

 

Eh I just tested some hard maneuvers, strike all of that. Im not getting any FFB indications of nearing the edge of the flight envelope. (No stick shake), however the Mig21 has an all moving tail plane so this might be working as intended...

 

It's been so long since Ive flown the Mig in 1.2.X, anyone else with a FFB stick notice any differences in the handling? (I can't remember)

Edited October 5, 2015 by OnlyforDCS

[BadHabit]

BlackLion really nice statements there, i agree and after my last tests it is how (looks) should work. But never the less i would like too keep the flame of the thread, because overall the PFM of the module is quiet changed, so we can keep up with what other people are coming out with.

Thanks to everyone

[Harle]

Just to pour some salt on your wounds ;) So glad that I have the MSFFB2. Will never go back to a regular nonFF stick, I can fly the Mig (and the other planes) on the edge of the envelope all day long without stalling!

 

So glad that I have the BRD-DS nonFF stick, I can fly the Mig (and the other planes) on the edge of the envelope all day long without stalling!:P

[Kobymaru]

Every button is a toggle buton now if I understand it correctly, why?

Some wanted buttons for each state, some wanted TMHog binary-state (the same?) but this

system I dont understand. Not trying to be a dick, I just don't get it.

I'm very happy with this. Not everybody has a great, awesome, 150$ HOTAS stick. I have 12 Buttons on mine, and quite frankly all those one-state-per-button assignments drove me up a f* wall. I simply don't have so many buttons. Also, the FC3 keymaps all use this style, and if you move between planes it's sometimes nice to have some consistency in the keymapping.

[zaelu]

I'm very happy with this. Not everybody has a great, awesome, 150$ HOTAS stick. I have 12 Buttons on mine, and quite frankly all those one-state-per-button assignments drove me up a f* wall. I simply don't have so many buttons. Also, the FC3 keymaps all use this style, and if you move between planes it's sometimes nice to have some consistency in the keymapping.

 

 

How is this related with the thread subject or subforum subject?

[iFoxRomeo]

Eh I just tested some hard maneuvers, strike all of that. Im not getting any FFB indications of nearing the edge of the flight envelope. (No stick shake), however the Mig21 has an all moving tail plane so this might be working as intended...

 

It's been so long since Ive flown the Mig in 1.2.X, anyone else with a FFB stick notice any differences in the handling? (I can't remember)

 

There were none.

I have not noticed any differences between 1.2 and 1.5 regarding FFB. But I have to check trimming.

 

 

Fox