MiG-29 and F-15C Navigation Confusion

[IvanK]

I accept the decision in the interests of accuracy to disable the map function on the new MIG29 MFD. However we now have a Navigation situation in that you never really know what airfield or Waypoint you are steering to. In the real aircraft (a standard 9-12 or 9-13 model) the pilot can specifically select the Airfield or a waypoint or the co ordinates of a beacon to steer to. This is done using the nav control panel near his right knee. The number of selections is limited but it exists and provides positive Airfield or Waypoint selection.

 

In the interests of getting a workable solution how about there being some digital representation of the current waypoint or RTN airfield displayed down on this panel or even in the HUD ?. The SU25T has an airfield numbering system and this could be utilized as well. So on selecting RTN mode the pilot would look down to the panel or on the HUD and see the current airfield number RTN is steering to. Then if desired the pilot can using the Next WYPT or Previous WYPT command cycle through the various airfield numbers. The same procedure could be used for waypoints.

 

The current situation of blindly selecting RTN or a wypt (in ENR mode) that you have no idea of which one it is is daft and unrealistic. Asking for ATC for azimuth and then stabbing away at the wypt change buttons to get something close is equally daft and unrealistic.

 

A similar situation is present in the F15. Again use of the numerical airfield number as used by the SU25T would resolve all the ambiguity. in the case of the F15 the airfield number could be displayed either on the INS panel or in the HUD like ILS N15 etc

 

Here is what I propose. Either a Head down panel or HUD solution would be acceptable. Perhaps the HUD solution is the simplest.

 

lets presume the the pilot wants to return home to Batumi. In the SU25T airfield list Batumi is N11. The pilot selects RTN sub mode then uses the Next or previous WYPT commands until 11 is displayed next to RTN or on the Nav control panel. Pictures below taken in DCS1.5 with 11 added to illustrate the concept.

 

 

In the case of the F15 he would do the same with ILS selected until he sees ILS 11

 

 

the overall map with the SU25T Airfield numbers listed here as Nxx

 

Edited October 6, 2015 by IvanK

[CrackerJack]

I was just about to post a question about ILS Nav in the F15. I just started flying it and have no idea how to be certain I've selected the correct ILSN nav point. I have the same chart you've attached and I agree wholeheartedly that its very confusing as is. As you suggested the addition of the N number would be a great help!

 

I guess the only way to do it now is to check range and bearing?

Edited October 6, 2015 by CrackerJack

[pepin1234]

I guess all the pictures you showed are edited with the 11 airfield Added. I did not see any number for airfield and not sure if whe have wpt numbers with 1.5 beta. ED should be working on that.

[IvanK]

Yep added the 11 to the pics to demonstrate the concept.

 

airfield numbers are there in the DCS1.5 SU25T I tested before posting the above.

[thinkr]

I would love to see this feature added. Navigation is always difficult. Good navigation instrumentation is essential please add this ED +1

[DarkFire]

Doesn't using the knee board, which shows the map plus your plotted route plan, help with this sort of navigation?

[IvanK]

not much use if you are nowhere near your planned track ... as the result perhaps of an engagement or you need to actually go and land somewhere else other than planned.

 

The SU25T has a neat effective way of doing it in the Limited fidelity cockpits port it across to the others and its a workable solution.

[DarkFire]

not much use if you are nowhere near your planned track ... as the result perhaps of an engagement or you need to actually go and land somewhere else other than planned.

 

The SU25T has a neat effective way of doing it in the Limited fidelity cockpits port it across to the others and its a workable solution.

 

I agree that those situations can happen, but your heading bug together with your HSI will get you steered towards your last assigned waypoint and will also get you back on your assigned ground track. The only time you should divert from your assigned recovery airfield is in the case of an emergency, for which calling up the ATC menu will automatically populate the list with the geographically nearest airfield at the top. AWACS or EWR can also point you in the direction of the nearest divert field

 

As an aside, I wish mission designers would pay more attention to this: the amount of effort and thought that goes in to mission planning in reality is rarely reflected in game missions. A lot of factors go in to the choice of waypoints, speeds and altitudes and desired ground tracks on the way to and from an objective. To get a taste of what really goes in to it, watch one of Bunyap's awesomely detailed mission videos where he spends an hour just studying the map and preparing for the mission.

 

You have a very well presented idea, but I'm not sure it's necessary. I also don't want ED to start sacrificing realism for the sake of ease of navigation. Maybe ED could implement your idea as an "easy navigation" option within the game options like they do for communications and avionics. That could provide a good compromise.

[IvanK]

No aeroplane in the world with an area navigation system or even just radio navaid system presents pilots with steering data without the means to ID or reference that data to a specific WYPT and or NAVAID including the MIg29 .... thats realism :)

[=4c=Nikola]

+1 When you accidentally change landing airport in F-15, you're lost.

[HiJack]

The problem here is the fact that the current FC3 upgraded aircrafts does not have a fully simulated cockpit. If the cockpit would be fully simulated there would be no problem in identifying airports, waypoints, VOR's TACAN and other navigation resources. I support the requested number in the HUD as a "quickfix". In the mean time you can check out the airfield information I have used for many years flying in FC2 and now updated for FC3. The image shows all necessary information to navigate to any airport and also ID's the Alternate airport. The image also fits your kneeboard :)

 

Runway shows headings and length.

F-15C shows the number displyed in the upper right corner of HSI.

VHF FM shows the airport ATC frequency

ID shows the airport ID for Russian aircrafts

Alt shows the alternate airport ID

ILS shows runway heading and frequency

 

 

 

Enjoy :thumbup:

[DarkFire]

Nice work, that's very neat!

 

I think we'd probably all agree that it would be nice for the Su-25, F-15 and MiG-29 to be brought up to DCS standards with full cockpit implementation :)

[Azrayen]

F-15C shows the number displyed in the upper right corner of HSI.

That would be the course, wouldn't it? Then it's dependent on which RWY is in service...

[HiJack]

That would be the course, wouldn't it? Then it's dependent on which RWY is in service...

Yes, this shows the number of the default heading. You have to look at the weather and check the list to see if the numbers have changed. The list is always displayed in the same order so you can identify where you are on the list at all time if you pay attention. Just use "Next waypoint/airfield" key and skip through the list a couple of times and you will get the idea. :thumbup:

 

EDIT: As we currently have no "Previous waypoint/airfield" key you must continue the list around again if you go to far in the list

EDIT2: You always start in the list from the airport you took off from! (Unless you have pressed 1 a couple of times, then the numbers can change).

Edited October 7, 2015 by HiJack

[Worther_1]

I agree with OP. Now that we have the option to cycle waypoints forward and back (used to be only forward I believe) it is crucial to have the waypoint/airport identification listed. Let's not try to make things so realistic we can't use them!

[OnlyforDCS]

Great idea, incoming rep! :thumbup:

 

When I fly the F15C, and even in some of the older jets like the L39C and the Mig21, I use the F10 key and an azimuth call now and then to navigate to where I want to go.

 

I pretend the F10 key is a handheld GPS device (or cellphone if you like). Never fly without it ;)

Edited October 13, 2015 by OnlyforDCS

[lmp]

I haven't checked how it currently works in the MiG-29 cockpit, but in the Su-25 the "Airfield 1" light on the navigation panel lights up when you have the departure airfield selected, "Airfield 2" when you have the arrival airport selected and "Airfield 3" when you've selected any other airfield. As you cycle through waypoints, the corresponding "Waypoint" lights turn on. I think this is a good system in most situations, I much prefer it to adding fake indicators in the cockpit, so I'll use it as the base for my proposal.

 

The two problems that this current implementation has is identifying waypoints beyond the 5 or 6 available and identifying airfields that are not in your flight plan.

 

My solution to problem #1 is... to use less waypoints. That's a limitation real Su-25 (and MiG-29) pilots have to cope with. It's realistic to leave it as it is.

 

A way to solve problem #2 would be to have the radio/ARK/RSBN also "tune" to the airfield channels. This way you would look on the radio channel selector, look up the corresponding number in a chart in the manual and know which airfield you are navigating to that way.

[blkspade]

While the current system isn't ideal, its really just not as hard as some make it out to be. The first reason is the age of the map. Unless you are particularly new to DCS, how can you not know by now where any given airfield is, on top of the starting airfield being already mapped to the first WP. This will be more of a hassle when the new maps are released, but then you'll still have the radio and/or F10 view. This is largely a non issue in the FC3 aircraft compared to WW2 ones. Radio the airfield, steer to the given heading, cycle ILSN to the airfield that most closely matches the range. Its only flaw is the areas with airfields close to one another, but then they are in visual range of each other. I'd get lost in the P-51 (the compass irks me) well before it could ever happen to me in the F-15. As much as ED have been moving to model the FC3 aircraft more accurately, short of full modeling, they likely aren't going to add unrealistic things to them.

[IvanK]

Unless you are in IMC and with a Helmet fire.

 

Just asking for a system that clearly states what WYPT or AFLD your Nav system is referencing ..... just as it does IRL in the respective aeroplanes MIG29/SU27/SU33/F15. Given we are not going to get a complete cockpit realism makeover for these types the idea is simple and not unrealistic.

[IvanK]

Retro Thread :) Just an update with Airfield ID codes for Nevada map and Persian Gulf Map ... still living in hope :)

 

 

Nevada 17 RTN Airfields

Creech is ID1

Groom Lake is ID2

McCarran is ID3

Nellis is ID4

Beatty is ID5

Boulder is ID6

Echo Bay is ID7

Henderson is ID8

Jean Airport is ID9

Laughalan is ID10

Lincoln County is ID11

Mesquite is ID12

Mina is ID13

North Las Vegas is ID14

Pahute Mesa is ID15

Tonopah is ID16

Tonopah Test field is ID17

 

 

Persian Gulf 27 RTN Airfields ( as of 21Nov2018 )

Abu Musa ID1

Bandar Abbas ID2

Bandar Lengeh ID3

Al Dhafra ID4

Dubai ID5

Al Maktoum ID6

Fujairah ID7

Tunb Island ID8

Havadarya ID9

Khasab ID10

Lar Air base ID11

Minhad ID12

Qeshm ID13

Sharjah ID14

Siri island ID15

Tunb Kashak ID16

Siri Abu Nuay ID17

Abu Dhabi I ID18

Sas Al Nakheel ID19

Shiraz ID20

Bandar_E_Jask ID21

Kerman ID22

Al Bateen ID23

Kish ID24

Al Ain ID25

Lavan Island ID26

Jiroft ID27

Edited December 10, 2018 by IvanK

[Auditor]

I fully agree with this post, and I hope PFM at least brings some more navigation information for the player considering that the plane is still tracking waypoint information.

 

My current workaround is the use the NS430, but that is likely not the intended solution.