After last patch, 27ER's performance is very weak again

[SgtPappy]

Has anybody checked the Aim7 lately? My wingy and I did 14 month ago. We figured that even the AIM/ had a better PK then any other er27 in the "sim". That is my reason why i Quit flying fighter at the moment although I love it. I am waiting for a good Su27 that has proper missiles which work correct or close to the real deal. Or I am waiting for the f18c.

 

I use the AIM-7 and AIM-9 1980's loadout almost exclusively online, regardless of what weapons the other team may be packing.

 

So far, slightly less than half of my AIM-7s have hit their targets, with only one Su-27 having no idea I was there (Belly shot, rear aspect) since DCS 1.5.0, and I played once yesterday with no discernible difference in AIM-7 tracking noticed. Almost every AIM-7 shot was fired from under 10,000' and under ~8nm ranges. When I'm flying, I can't afford to fly high once in the combat zone. An F-15 carrying only AIM-7s and AIM-9s has to be hidden in order to get the kill against 1990's weapon-armed F-15s, Flankers and Fulcrums.

[Frostie]

Seeing as so few people can effectively use the Su27 with terrain masking and sneaking tactics, not even experienced squads expect it in my experience.

 

I'm sorry Santi but you're talking about tactics which have been done extremely effectively as a solo by everyone and their auntie for the last 10 years in this sim. Please don't think what you're doing is something new just because your killing a few randoms in the 104th, right now mp is full of greenies waiting to get splashed. ;)

[Chimango]

Santi871; i respect the way you approach your online fighting but that is not what i enjoy the most. For me is not about getting a million kills as a lonewolf flying the Su-27 as it not supposed to; if i was to use ONLY those tactics i would take my MiG-21bis which i also find way more challenging.

 

Many people just go there using only this stealth tactic which is ok and i use it sometimes, but for me, DCS becomes a winged "Counterstrike" game which for me is not interesting at all.

 

 

So as some already said, this thread is not about tactics but about 27ERs being useless again after last patch was realesed.

[Santi871]

I'm sorry Santi but you're talking about tactics which have been done extremely effectively as a solo by everyone and their auntie for the last 10 years in this sim. Please don't think what you're doing is something new just because your killing a few randoms in the 104th, right now mp is full of greenies waiting to get splashed. ;)

 

I'm still underwhelmed by the amount of people who can do it properly. I've seen just a few. Again, that's why I wrote a guide for it.

[ShuRugal]

Would a SARH seeker pick up ground clutter reflection?

 

If the missile follows a proper loft trajectory, it shouldn't. The further off-axis the missile is from the launching aircraft, the greater its line-of-sight will diverge from the launching aircraft, thus the less it will be able to see the ground-return of the radar.

 

 

IE:

 

We can see here, that as long as the missile is not directly between the launching aircraft and the target, when the missile looks at the target, it cannot see the ground-reflection of the radar beam. However, current missile behavior in DCS appears to be such that the game is acting like the radar source is the missile, SARH missiles are effected by ground return interference even though they cannot see the ground return.

 

Chaff would be subject to a similar problem at close range (under 10 km): The radar beam is so narrow that it would not illuminate the chaff while in a flanking aspect. However, radar missiles are still decoyed by chaff in DCS, even when that chaff should not be reflecting any radar energy, because none should be striking it.

Edited November 10, 2015 by ShuRugal

[Ragnarok]

a complex calculation. Problem with differentiation ground clutter and dopler-chaff reflection is so-called "side lobes". There are patterns by which the change in amplitude corrected with a secondary link with the missile.

 

Basic question, why are not confused radar on the plane if the seeker to SARH confused? The answer is, because the modulation amplitude constant at a parent's radar on aircraft. This knowledge is secondary connection with missile for the rejection of different modulation that is received at SARH.

Changes modulation is precisely this impulse by which the fins move and missiles moving in space. When the SARH moves, the change modulation is happening from moment to moment.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Ragnarok

[GGTharos]

What about modulation? I think maybe you are using the wrong word, c and that's OK ... Just trying to figure out what you're trying to say (and I believe I know what you mean). The only radar simulation is 'is target in radar beam' then put the flag 'illuminated' on it. If the flag is there and the target is inside the missile fov, the missile will attempt to guide. I don't believe there's anything more to that, fundamentally.

Detection and tracking Range is set as a hard limit calculated by radar power, rcs and look down/up. For a missile, the seekers tend to have hard range limits. In other words, there's some radar equation simulation, but no RADIO simulation.

Edited November 10, 2015 by GGTharos

[Santi871]

What about modulation? I think maybe you are using the wrong word, c and that's OK ... Just trying to figure out what you're trying to say (and I believe I know what you mean). The only radar simulation is 'is target in radar beam' then put the flag 'illuminated' on it. If the flag is there and the target is inside the missile fov, the missile will attempt to guide. I don't believe there's anything more to that, fundamentally.

Detection and tracking Range is set as a hard limit calculated by radar power, rcs and look down/up. For a missile, the seekers tend to have hard range limits. In other words, there's some radar equation simulation, but no RADIO simulation.

 

So does whether the target is against the ground or sky affect SARH/ARH guidance?

[GGTharos]

Yes it does. I thought that was obvious. The notch works only in look down (but should probably partially work look up ... Greater vulnerability to chaff in this case is an appropriate representation)

[Ragnarok]

@GG

 

I write with the help of translator. I think the changes that missiles registered so as to provide the correct fins until signal is again in the center of the beam, then laid back fins and missiles goes straight.

[GGTharos]

OK, you are talking about guidance, the seeker tracks the reflected signal and generally tries to zero the line of sight motion (fly so the seeker look angle to target is not changing). This is called proportional navigation, used by most missiles. More complex method are used by most modern missiles but generally is fair to assume PN for most missiles pre-120 that are not SAMs.

[Santi871]

Yes it does. I thought that was obvious. The notch works only in look down (but should probably partially work look up ... Greater vulnerability to chaff in this case is an appropriate representation)

 

I know it does in real life, but I was not aware of whether it was modelled in DCS. Thanks!

[Breakshot]

I'm sorry Santi but you're talking about tactics which have been done extremely effectively as a solo by everyone and their auntie for the last 10 years in this sim. Please don't think what you're doing is something new just because your killing a few randoms in the 104th, right now mp is full of greenies waiting to get splashed. ;)

+1 been there done that since LOMAC 03. The environment hasn't changed much, nor are the tactics of "lone wolfs".

 

Clearly the discussion is going off track with the "my tactics are better than yours nonsense".

 

Fact of the matter is, in all things being equal, at the merge WVR situation, the 15 is much more potent because unlike what Blaze stated, firing an ER won't result in a mutual kill, it will miss 90% if there is chaff in the air. In the previous patch though, Blazes statement would have been true though...

 

So the question is, why pork ERs to oblivion again?! Who suggested this, and by what reasoning?

 

Отправлено с моего C5502 через Tapatalk

[Breakshot]

I know it does in real life, but I was not aware of whether it was modelled in DCS. Thanks!

It's actually extremely effective. Even against ARH missiles.

 

The key is to drop speed down to under 650 or so. Bank slightly into the incoming threat to maintain proper aspect and chaff.

 

You will notice everything just flying by...

 

This is great as a last ditch defensive maneuver to buy some crucial time. But limited given your unable to put any pressure on the bandit.

 

 

Отправлено с моего C5502 через Tapatalk

[Breakshot]

In any case, does anyone know what parameters were adjusted relative to the last patch?

 

Отправлено с моего C5502 через Tapatalk

[Plushanubka]

Was flying mig-29 for couple days. Don't think r-77 is more usefull. It didn't hit shit in about 15-20 launches.

 

Also, can someone explain how missle-class radar can be better then aircraft-class radar? (about r-27 and aim-120)

Edited November 10, 2015 by Plushanubka

[*Rage*]

^^ You would need to go back and see if they failed because of a guidance issue, energy or whether the target successfully and legitimately evaded.

[Plushanubka]

I'm too lazy for that. Now i only use r-77 to make oponent go defensive and r27ET and r-73 for kill

[apocom]

Was flying mig-29 for couple days. Don't think r-77 is more usefull. It didn't hit shit in about 15-20 launches.

 

Also, can someone explain how missle-class radar can be better then aircraft-class radar? (about r-27 and aim-120)

 

The missle-class radar is way closer. But more important an ARH missle knows the targets movement relative to its own postion and can predict the enemy position and therefor adjust its own.

[Nerd1000]

What about modulation? I think maybe you are using the wrong word, c and that's OK ... Just trying to figure out what you're trying to say (and I believe I know what you mean). The only radar simulation is 'is target in radar beam' then put the flag 'illuminated' on it. If the flag is there and the target is inside the missile fov, the missile will attempt to guide. I don't believe there's anything more to that, fundamentally.

Detection and tracking Range is set as a hard limit calculated by radar power, rcs and look down/up. For a missile, the seekers tend to have hard range limits. In other words, there's some radar equation simulation, but no RADIO simulation.

 

He may be referring to a feature of the sparrow- it has small antennas that look backwards and pick up some of the illuminating beam for comparison with incoming reflections from the target. This I assume is how the modern versions distinguish the target from clutter.

[Frostie]

The missle-class radar is way closer.

I think the relative radar power negates this factor.

[GGTharos]

He may be referring to a feature of the sparrow- it has small antennas that look backwards and pick up some of the illuminating beam for comparison with incoming reflections from the target. This I assume is how the modern versions distinguish the target from clutter.

 

AFAIK it is mainly used to sense originating doppler and pick up m-link if any ... So it is certainly useful for discriminating ground clutter, and closure is also used as an input in APN. The change in closure might also be used in APN on some way.

[Chimango]

Bottom line is:

 

1. Please revert ER performance to last patch (hotfix 3)

 

2. Please inform on changelogs when a change on missile performance is done, and if possible why it was done.

 

Thank you.

[Capn kamikaze]

Having read through this thread I just have to ask if people are assuming too much of the R-27 series, from all the things I've ever read about it, the R-27 has always had a low pk, and that's compared to AIM-7's, and especially the R-27T and TE's, there was a reason aircraft like the Su-27 carried half a dozen of them, and that was to compensate for its low pk....

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-27_%28air-to-air_missile%29#Operational_service

 

I know it's a wiki, but you can check the sources.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Cap'n kamikaze

[*Rage*]

Having read through this thread I just have to ask if people are assuming too much of the R-27 series' date=' from all the things I've ever read about it, the R-27 has always had a low pk, and that's compared to AIM-7's, and especially the R-27T and TE's, there was a reason aircraft like the Su-27 carried half a dozen of them, and that was to compensate for its low pk....[/quote']

 

Are you assuming too much? Source?