After last patch, 27ER's performance is very weak again

[TAW_Blaze]

Of course not Blaze. You are absolutely right. I think the question though isn't about the kinematics and physics. They are certainly way better than FC1 days, and I hope it stays that way.

 

The problem is rather with tracking and CM rejection, or rather a complete lack of for SARH and IR missiles. In general I'd say CMs are easily 2-300% more effective than in FC1 for those types of missiles.

 

As for actives, their biggest downfall is just the lack of legs and too much maneuvering drag.

 

I think all missiles need some serious love.

 

 

 

Отправлено с моего C5502 через Tapatalk

 

I know. But maybe give them the benefit of the doubt that things are not working as well as they used to because the systems have become a hell of a lot more complex? :)

 

As far as why performance keeps going back and forth. Well I have no idea. But for the moment it doesn't matter a lot since the game is unplayable in MP anyway. Out of memory crashes all day with 8GB. If I fly more than 45 mins in one run it's usually either the server crashing or me.

[Breakshot]

I know how you feel dude. I'm on 8gb myself. The memory leak is just killing it at the moment...

 

Отправлено с моего C5502 через Tapatalk

[Drona]

Because ignoring gravity and having ludicrous flight / guidance models is better. :music_whistling:

 

I'd rather have that, than the crap that is now offered to us. :smartass:

 

I mean, where's the fun in flying BVR combat when the missiles don't work as they're supposed to. You just end up being frustrated.

[Breakshot]

I think the issue raised here is why are the Devs constantly changing game vital performance parameters and dynamics and not even logging them?!

 

As of late, the so called patch logs are rather more like release notes. Extremely sloppy on the part of the Devs, or for any company tracking their product. A log should be a full detailed log on changes, otherwise how does one keep progress on Beta testing?

 

All this leads me to the simple question, who are the internal testers responsible for missiles and etc? They seem to decide whatever they want from patch to patch, and don't even have the discipline to log or justify their so called "adjustments" ....

 

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[Chimango]

Well, i have a couple of ACMI from quick BVR against F-15 set to excellent. Check the uploaded one how all 4 ERs miss it's target, they are launched from 40km, 30km, 20km and even the last one launched with very high energy at only 13 km goes for chaffs as soon as it leaves its pylon! Nonsense. (Btw, not to mention the first ET hdg straight for the flares even at high speed and just 9km away from it's target)

 

On the second test i did same thing, the only ER that hits the F-15 is the one launched at 8km...short IR range. :huh:

 

This really ruins any kind of BVR for the Su-27; so let's hope ED gets serious and fixes missile performance to bring it, at least, as it was on previous Hotfix 3.

 

ACMI FILE=> http://www.mediafire.com/download/99mku4hbiw6lhi1/27ER_BSperformance_OB151.txt.acmi

[TAW_Blaze]

I know how you feel dude. I'm on 8gb myself. The memory leak is just killing it at the moment...

 

Отправлено с моего C5502 через Tapatalk

 

Yep. I decided to stop until it's fixed because every time I come around to fly I leave with a varying level of frustration.

 

I'd rather have that, than the crap that is now offered to us.

 

I mean, where's the fun in flying BVR combat when the missiles don't work as they're supposed to. You just end up being frustrated.

 

Everyone seems to only remember the good stuff. What about the mindless maddog spam and the fancy ECM blinking? :)

 

It's still a sim and most of us have little or no knowledge and just assume how things should work, but since there isn't jack you can do about it you might as well just adapt to it because you'll lose a lot of the fun expecting things to work in a way they obviously aren't.

 

IMO having bad BVR missiles favors the russian jets by a whole lot, it's so much easier to merge and it's far easier to lose anything inside 5 miles than anywhere else. The usual 15 driver'll have his head stuck in his instruments anyway so there's almost no fear of being visually spotted. :D

 

Have to add I expected missile smoke to become easier to spot with EDGE but it turned out quite the opposite. I have a lot more trouble seeing them.

Edited November 9, 2015 by BIGNEWY
1.1 profanity

[TAW_Blaze]

I think the issue raised here is why are the Devs constantly changing game vital performance parameters and dynamics and not even logging them?!

 

As of late, the so called patch logs are rather more like release notes. Extremely sloppy on the part of the Devs, or for any company tracking their product. A log should be a full detailed log on changes, otherwise how does one keep progress on Beta testing?

 

All this leads me to the simple question, who are the internal testers responsible for missiles and etc? They seem to decide whatever they want from patch to patch, and don't even have the discipline to log or justify their so called "adjustments" ....

 

Отправлено с моего C5502 через Tapatalk

 

They could use a better documenting system, but we're already getting a hell of a lot more than what we had some years ago. :D

[Breakshot]

I think on the contrary. Previously, everything in the log is what you would get... Now it's like "a list of small changes and improvements"

 

Also patch logs are edited and competently changed after the release!

 

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[Chimango]

Blaze, first of all sorry to hear about 8gb issues, i have 16gb and so far so good.

 

Second, please check the ACMI file i uploaded on last message from page #3 (msg #30).

 

I disagree that bad BVR favours russian planes...AIM120 is not as useless as the ERs and still deadly at medium ranges if the foxed pilot doesn´t do everything right. BTW, ETs love flares as much as R73s.

 

But anyway, ERs are my main concern. Check the ACMI please, it takes 6 missiles to finally hit an AI F-15 only loaded with aim9...all ERs miss in ranges from 40k to 13k.

Edited November 9, 2015 by BIGNEWY
1.1 profanity

[Drona]

Everyone seems to only remember the good stuff. What about the mindless maddog spam and the fancy ECM blinking? :)

 

ECM blinking did not happen in FC2, Maddog to a certain extent.

 

It's still a sim and most of us have little or no knowledge and just assume how things should work' date=' but since there isn't jack you can do about it you might as well just adapt to it because you'll lose a lot of the fun expecting things to work in a way they obviously aren't.[/quote']

 

Yes, but we can voice our opinion. Also given the fact that the Russian Air Force is currently flying around Syria with R-27Rs tells a lot about their confidence in the missile. Nobody's going to challenge them but still, why are they using it then?

 

IMO having bad BVR missiles favors the russian jets by a whole lot' date=' it's so much easier to merge and it's far easier to lose anything inside 5 miles than anywhere else. The usual 15 driver'll have his head stuck in his instruments anyway so there's almost no fear of being visually spotted. :D[/quote']

 

That's where you are wrong. The flanker should be used differently and not always hide in the mountains/notch and wait for the merge!

Edited November 9, 2015 by BIGNEWY

[Nedum]

Has anything being changed regarding ERs? They finally became a bit better on 1.5 but after last patch again they seem to go chaff hungry and almost useless.

 

Will SU-27 riders have their ERs fixed for good?

 

I will attach an ACMI file later on.

 

Yes, the old bad times are back.

Was flying the quick FC3 Su27 mission and with 1.5.1 the ERs, ETs and 73s I hit nothing again.

The ERs not even try to fly to the target... if the target uses chaff the ERs going straight from the start to the first chaff, no matter what.

And the 73s looking more for my own engines as for the enemy ones... what a BS again.

So again only guns, guns, guns.:mad:

On the other site I can use chaff and flares the whole long time and not one enemy missile goes for it.... If I can't dodge them they'll hit me.

If I fly with the F15C one missile one hit (against AI). :huh:

 

What's going on?

Edited November 9, 2015 by Nedum
1.1 profanity

[Santi871]

Oh well, learn to fly differently and remain undetected in the time being. Countermeasure resistance doesn't count if your enemy never knows you or your missile are there anyway. Got 13 kills with 2 deaths in 104th a couple days ago. 100% doable.

[*Rage*]

Everyone seems to only remember the good stuff. What about the mindless maddog spam and the fancy ECM blinking? :)

 

Yes that was annoying! But im not sold on the current ECM modelling either. Part of me wishes it would be removed outright until remodelled properly.

 

It's still a sim and most of us have little or no knowledge and just assume how things should work, but since there isn't jack you can do about it you might as well just adapt to it because you'll lose a lot of the fun expecting things to work in a way they obviously aren't.

Power to the people:) Its not fun now anyway. We don't need to look back to FC1 etc..It was fine one patch ago (bar the excess IRM flare loving). Now ALL russian missiles serve only 2 purposes - Extra weight and drag. Actually theres a bonus purpose as well - they alert the enemy aircraft of your presence.

 

IMO having bad BVR missiles favors the russian jets by a whole lot, it's so much easier to merge and it's far easier to lose anything inside 5 miles than anywhere else. The usual 15 driver'll have his head stuck in his instruments anyway so there's almost no fear of being visually spotted. :D

Definitely not! Its not bad BVR missiles. Its reasonably effective 120s between 5-15km and completely ineffectual russian missiles at all ranges in the presence of countermeasures. If you allow yourself to merge in an F15 against a Flanker/mig now youre doing something very very wrong.

 

It amazes me that after years of unhappiness and complaining ED got it right and made the player base happy with the chaff rejection modelling one patch ago, only to then revert back again! Without explanation!

Edited November 9, 2015 by BIGNEWY
1.1 profanity

[pepin1234]

Waiting for a Shilka DCS or an OSA DCS. Up now I want to become an Air-defenses operator.

[*Rage*]

Waiting for a Shilka DCS or an OSA DCS. Up now I want to become an Air-defenses operator.

 

Being an OSA operator will not relieve your frustrations:)

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=150562

 

Shilka maybe...

[BIGNEWY]

Guys please take a look at the rules before posting again.

 

thread Cleaned of profanity.

[apocom]

Ok, a few random facts:

 

- Active radar homing missles have the highest PK

- Chaff has the least effect on active radar homing missles

 

- Chaff disturbes your radar and you are very likely loosing your lock. Thats the point of chaff.

- Chaff is really huge on your radar. For a radar its way "louder" than jamming.

 

- As long as someone illuminates the target, a semi active radar homing missle ignores chaff completely. That's just because the SARH has no active sensor and cannot even tell that there is chaff in the air.

 

- Someone has to illuminate a target. Can even be a SAM. There is no reason why you should use your own radar.

- If you loose lock of your target, the missle goes ballistic. If you gain lock again, the missle starts homing the target again.

- You can reassign a target for your SARH.

 

Conclusion:

Overall a lot of SARH disadvantages are implemented and none of the advantages, but the higher range.

On a side note: Even the moon can disturb your IR-Missle.

Edited November 9, 2015 by apocom

[Shaman]

Seriously, after 1.5.1 update I can't hit dumb AIs flying like drones straight just dropping few chaff with an ER... In Flanker quick mission I trashed all semi-actives, substantial difference compared to 1.5.0, ERs are useless again (?).

I can't even relate to this change, because ED is forgetting to print plenty of changes in their patches' changelogs, how annoying.

[TAW_Blaze]

Yes that was annoying! But im not sold on the current ECM modelling either. Part of me wishes it would be removed outright until remodelled properly.

 

Current ECM modeling doesn't even qualify as a joke. Couldn't agree any more.

 

Second, please check the ACMI file i uploaded on last message from page #3 (msg #30).

 

I disagree that bad BVR favours russian planes...AIM120 is not as useless as the ERs and still deadly at medium ranges if the foxed pilot doesn´t do everything right. BTW, ETs love flares as much as R73s.

 

But anyway, ERs are my main concern. Check the ACMI please, it takes 6 missiles to finally hit an AI F-15 only loaded with aim9...all ERs miss in ranges from 40k to 13k.

 

That's where you are wrong. The flanker should be used differently and not always hide in the mountains/notch and wait for the merge!

 

Definitely not! Its not bad BVR missiles. Its reasonably effective 120s between 5-15km and completely ineffectual russian missiles at all ranges in the presence of countermeasures. If you allow yourself to merge in an F15 against a Flanker/mig now youre doing something very very wrong.

 

I won't reply to each of those but rather give an overall answer that you guys don't seem to get.

 

I said that having poor BVR performance favors the russians, not that it makes them king of the hill. 15 is still going to reign supreme. But here's the thing:

 

With the performance we presume to be realistic any russian jet would be in a hell of an uphill climb to beat a 15 in a energetically fair fight. From anywhere around 40 miles you could be in an engagement and your only tool would be the ER as the ET or the 73 ain't gonna do a thing for you. And even then despite the ER having slightly more legs will be far outweighted by having an ARH.

 

Comparatively right now anywhere outside 15 miles you don't even think of firing at people. The scale of BVR engagement zone is reduced to a fraction of what it's supposed to be, the zone where you're supposedly gonna get trashed by a 15 probably 9 out of 10 cases in a reasonable fight. So yeah I'd agree to you having it a hell of a lot easier than in a realistic scenario. Effective slammer range is about 7 nm at the altitudes everyone flies at, and then I was pretty generous. I'd say it's exponentially easier to force a merge and lose his lock between 10 and 5 miles than from 40 to 5, no?

 

The lack of TWS radar memory is just the icing on the cake, anyone who goes through the notch for even a split second, especially between turning hot/cold will usually just flat out vanish and refuse to reappear again. Sad part is that I know exactly how to deal with this and it's still a legit tactic to run from a guy then turn sideways and commit into him at 5 miles because chances are high you're gonna get a mutual kill atleast.

 

I get it that your missiles suck but any fool who doesn't respect a good ER launch doesn't deserve to fly at all. It's still there to force your will on them, might not be a one shot wonder but it's definitely not something to ignore. I haven't flown the flanker for a long time but I know from the 15 side of things that ignoring ER launches is a fast way to go home.

 

It amazes me that after years of unhappiness and complaining ED got it right and made the player base happy with the chaff rejection modelling one patch ago, only to then revert back again! Without explanation!

 

I think somewhere along the way I gave up to find reason behind ED's actions.

[Teknetinium]

Blaze, what was wrong whit Blinking jammers, it was more alive and felt more real to me compare to now. Nothing makes jammers more RL in DCS1.5.3 It was removed only becouse it broke TWS lock :) funny that IA blink jammers now thou:)

 

I hope ED get it sorted soon, It has been a long wait. Modern Air Combat Need to find a fundation. We need some love ED.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Teknetinium

[TAW_Blaze]

AFAIK the SPJs that we can carry are incapable of jamming TWS, for a start. But yeah like Rage said before the ECM system should be deleted already.

[Ragnarok]

To begin is important to take the official probability goal with one missile and two missiles. For now it is not.

 

p=0,7 (70%)

 

P = 1-(1-p)**n = 1-(1-0,7)**2 = 1-0,3**2 = 1-0,09 = 0,91 (91%)

 

Russians say that one ER = 80%, R-77 = 90%

 

Tacview - launch in ideal conditions to shoot down (counting, 180 aspect, no escape zone, behind the sky, high speed).

probability close.rar

Edited November 9, 2015 by Ragnarok

[red_coreSix]

AFAIK the SPJs that we can carry are incapable of jamming TWS' date=' for a start. But yeah like Rage said before the ECM system should be deleted already.[/quote']

 

They should be well capable of jamming TWS. The jamming we have in the FC3 aircrafts is noise jamming only. If ED were to implement a proper ECM modeling BVR wouldn't be possible anymore.

[*Rage*]

I won't reply to each of those but rather give an overall answer that you guys don't seem to get.

 

I said that having poor BVR performance favors the russians, not that it makes them king of the hill. 15 is still going to reign supreme. But here's the thing:

 

With the performance we presume to be realistic any russian jet would be in a hell of an uphill climb to beat a 15 in a energetically fair fight. From anywhere around 40 miles you could be in an engagement and your only tool would be the ER as the ET or the 73 ain't gonna do a thing for you. And even then despite the ER having slightly more legs will be far outweighted by having an ARH.

 

Comparatively right now anywhere outside 15 miles you don't even think of firing at people. The scale of BVR engagement zone is reduced to a fraction of what it's supposed to be, the zone where you're supposedly gonna get trashed by a 15 probably 9 out of 10 cases in a reasonable fight. So yeah I'd agree to you having it a hell of a lot easier than in a realistic scenario. Effective slammer range is about 7 nm at the altitudes everyone flies at, and then I was pretty generous. I'd say it's exponentially easier to force a merge and lose his lock between 10 and 5 miles than from 40 to 5, no?

 

The lack of TWS radar memory is just the icing on the cake, anyone who goes through the notch for even a split second, especially between turning hot/cold will usually just flat out vanish and refuse to reappear again. Sad part is that I know exactly how to deal with this and it's still a legit tactic to run from a guy then turn sideways and commit into him at 5 miles because chances are high you're gonna get a mutual kill atleast.

 

I get it that your missiles suck but any fool who doesn't respect a good ER launch doesn't deserve to fly at all. It's still there to force your will on them, might not be a one shot wonder but it's definitely not something to ignore. I haven't flown the flanker for a long time but I know from the 15 side of things that ignoring ER launches is a fast way to go home.

 

Blaze, you're missing the point. Even in an energetically fair fight the F15 should have the advantage. ARH missiles on the whole, are better than SARH. We all agree to that. Thats where team tactics come into play. What im saying is that the russian missiles are useless at all ranges. Ill say it again for clarity:

 

For all intents and purposes, All Russian missiles at all ranges (0-50km) are entirely useless for the presence of chaff and flares.

Yes, you may on the odd occasion get it to track. You might even get a hallelujah moment and score a kill with it online when the stars align. But as a basis on which to train formation and tactics etc, the above statement holds true. If adding the F15 to the mix muddies the water for you and invokes too much emotion in others ill say it another way. In a 1v1 fight, 27 vs 27 it will almost always devolve into a gun fight.

 

You may respect the launch of an ER and thats good for you. Flying realistic despite the game mechanics is your own prerogative. But it doesnt help me that all the only ordinance worth carrying in the flanker is 150 gun rounds currently. Again.

Edited November 9, 2015 by ///Rage

[Boberro]

- Someone has to illuminate a target. Can even be a SAM. There is no reason why you should use your own radar.

- If you loose lock of your target, the missle goes ballistic. If you gain lock again, the missle starts homing the target again.

- You can reassign a target for your SARH.

 

Are you sure it is related to ER family?