After last patch, 27ER's performance is very weak again

[Breakshot]

Blaze, I think you are overestimating the WVR capabilities of the Flanker.

 

Yes, the F15 needs to get closer, however this is where it actually has the advantage, believe it or not. Let me explain why:

 

1. Currently all IR missiles are competently useless and track anything but the target. Go for the first flare, moon, ground, your own etc.

 

2. Flanker relies primarily on IR missiles once we close to less than 10km. So because of point #1 even by getting close you're forced to basically go guns as most missiles will simply miss, unless of course the bandit does not see you.

 

3. On the contrary, F15 with 120 at that range is super deadly. You need seriously experienced pilot to dodge those slammers in NEZ.

 

4. On top of that, major advantage is all 15s missiles are smokeless! This is huge IMO, makes the aim 9 way better than 73, IMO.

 

So no, your hypothesis is however logical on paper, is totally wrong in practice.

 

 

Отправлено с моего C5502 через Tapatalk

[Santi871]

I think you guys are beating a dead horse. It's clear that the Su27 and F15 benefit from different tactics - each plane is great at what it does best and half-decent at everything else.

 

The whole point on spending 10 hours writing a guide is that you realize relying on radar locks and lack of stealth gets you nowhere. Russian missiles have poor cm resistance, that's not news. Now you can continue to argue and complain about it or you can explore new tactics. Hint: its all about getting within 15-20km of your enemy without getting noticed. After that it's a game of picking your poison. I get kills with 73s, ETs, ERs and guns all alike.

 

I said it and say it again: fight the F15 in its own game and you're likely to die. So find a different way that doesn't get you killed.

[Teknetinium]

I think you guys are beating a dead horse. It's clear that the Su27 and F15 benefit from different tactics - each plane is great at what it does best and half-decent at everything else.

 

The whole point on spending 10 hours writing a guide is that you realize relying on radar locks and lack of stealth gets you nowhere. Russian missiles have poor cm resistance, that's not news. Now you can continue to argue and complain about it or you can explore new tactics. Hint: its all about getting within 15-20km of your enemy without getting noticed. After that it's a game of picking your poison. I get kills with 73s, ETs, ERs and guns all alike.

 

I said it and say it again: fight the F15 in its own game and you're likely to die. So find a different way that doesn't get you killed.

 

Trust me 51st know how to adapt to new tactics, the question is not about that rather then that the simulation alows way to mutch risk at the moment.

[*Rage*]

Hint: its all about getting within 15-20km of your enemy without getting noticed.

 

Thats not how the Su27 was concieved, designed, or operated. It was designed to take on the F15(A) at the time. You're confusing real life doctrine with current gameplay mechanics. Im trying to change the gameplay mechanic at least back to where it was one patch ago.

Edited November 9, 2015 by ///Rage

[Santi871]

Thats not how the Su27 was concieved, designed, or operated. It was designed to take on the F15(A) at the time. You're confusing real life doctrine with current gameplay mechanics. Im trying to change the gameplay mechanic.

 

F15A... so the F15 that couldn't carry AMRAAMs. Take the AIM120s away from the F15s and they become horrible compared to the Su27.

 

I'm talking about how to use the Su27 ingame to massacre F15s.

[*Rage*]

Muddying the waters again.

 

Even against another Flanker the missiles are useless.

[Santi871]

Blaze, I think you are overestimating the WVR capabilities of the Flanker.

 

Yes, the F15 needs to get closer, however this is where it actually has the advantage, believe it or not. Let me explain why:

 

1. Currently all IR missiles are competently useless and track anything but the target. Go for the first flare, moon, ground, your own etc.

 

2. Flanker relies primarily on IR missiles once we close to less than 10km. So because of point #1 even by getting close you're forced to basically go guns as most missiles will simply miss, unless of course the bandit does not see you.

 

3. On the contrary, F15 with 120 at that range is super deadly. You need seriously experienced pilot to dodge those slammers in NEZ.

 

4. On top of that, major advantage is all 15s missiles are smokeless! This is huge IMO, makes the aim 9 way better than 73, IMO.

 

So no, your hypothesis is however logical on paper, is totally wrong in practice.

 

 

Отправлено с моего C5502 через Tapatalk

 

The F15C is severely worse than the Su27 at WVR. The lack of IRST makes it easy for the Su27 to sneak up unnoticed, whereas noticing an F15 is easy just because you can look at your RWR. That also renders your shots warningless.

 

Most F15 pilots are always looking down, chances of your missile being spotted is next to zero from my experience.

 

The vertical scan mode of the Su27 reacts much faster than the one in the F15C.

 

R73s have thrust vectoring and turn way way way better than the AIM9M. Yes it can be spotted, but as I just said, without warning in the RWR odds are your enemy won't see it. 1 in 10 73s will hit for me.

 

You also have a helmed mounted sight which allows off boresight shots, something the F15C can't even dream of.

 

On top of all that, you have a negative stability airframe with the option to relax or disable the ASC which allows for extremely sharp and unexpected turns as well as great stability at low airspeed.

 

Slammers are easy to dodge with some terrain masking thanks to mindless pilots who fire as soon as they find you, and that is if they can find you. It's all a matter of getting outside their radar FOV.

 

Muddying the waters again.

 

Even against another Flanker the missiles are useless.

 

I think that your issue is that you trust your missiles too much. I trust mine to fly straight into my target for 10-15km, nothing else. Works well, and my missiles rarely get spotted or spoofed. Do note that my target isn't even aware of where I am.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Santi871

[*Rage*]

The F15C is severely worse than the Su27 at WVR. The lack of IRST makes it easy for the Su27 to sneak up unnoticed, whereas noticing an F15 is easy just because you can look at your RWR. That also renders your shots warningless.

 

Most F15 pilots are always looking down, chances of your missile being spotted is next to zero from my experience.

 

The vertical scan mode of the Su27 reacts much faster than the one in the F15C.

 

R73s have thrust vectoring and turn way way way better than the AIM9M. Yes it can be spotted, but as I just said, without warning in the RWR odds are your enemy won't see it. 1 in 10 73s will hit for me.

 

You also have a helmed mounted sight which allows off boresight shots, something the F15C can't even dream of.

 

On top of all that, you have a negative stability airframe with the option to relax or disable the ASC which allows for extremely sharp and unexpected turns as well as great stability at low airspeed.

 

Slammers are easy to dodge with some terrain masking thanks to mindless pilots who fire as soon as they find you, and that is if they can find you. It's all a matter of getting outside their radar FOV.

 

Disorganised mountain flying^^

 

Which is fine and fun if thats what you want to do. I do it sometimes as well.

 

But in an event or squadmatch, in open terrain and/or against an experienced squad you would be dead in seconds.

Edited November 9, 2015 by ///Rage

[Bruce_D]

Ok,

My opinion is that all depends on tactics. With the last hotfix I manage to have a 40 km hit with an ER. I could have a 50 km hit if my Su-27 has more energy. Before this I only managed 34 km as maximum range for ER.

 

I use a stealth attack. After firing I unlock the target and wait a feel seconds to lock again (25 seconds for long range depending on the target aspect). The enemy does not know that I fired on him not even when.

 

I only use R-27ER and R-73. I agree that flares are very useful against R-27ET and R-73. But the AIM-120 and the AIM-9 don’t work well either. You can easily run from an AIM-120C without loose lock for your R-27ER.

 

I attached some tacview to show what I’m talking about.

Tacview.rar

[TAW_Blaze]

They should be well capable of jamming TWS. The jamming we have in the FC3 aircrafts is noise jamming only. If ED were to implement a proper ECM modeling BVR wouldn't be possible anymore.

 

The purpose of the jammers in the 15 and the russian pods is to combat STT or similar threats. They had limited usage even in that setup, noise jamming like we have in game would require a ludicrous amount of power and it'd overheat very fast.

 

For all intents and purposes, All Russian missiles at all ranges (0-50km) are entirely useless for the presence of chaff and flares.

 

Then why am I being shot down by these useless missiles?

 

In a 1v1 fight, 27 vs 27 it will almost always devolve into a gun fight.

 

Spade knows this about more but they flew lots of 15 v 15 1v1s where most of them ended in a gunfight too.

 

Blaze, I think you are overestimating the WVR capabilities of the Flanker.

 

Yes, the F15 needs to get closer, however this is where it actually has the advantage, believe it or not. Let me explain why:

 

1. Currently all IR missiles are competently useless and track anything but the target. Go for the first flare, moon, ground, your own etc.

 

2. Flanker relies primarily on IR missiles once we close to less than 10km. So because of point #1 even by getting close you're forced to basically go guns as most missiles will simply miss, unless of course the bandit does not see you.

 

3. On the contrary, F15 with 120 at that range is super deadly. You need seriously experienced pilot to dodge those slammers in NEZ.

 

4. On top of that, major advantage is all 15s missiles are smokeless! This is huge IMO, makes the aim 9 way better than 73, IMO.

 

So no, your hypothesis is however logical on paper, is totally wrong in practice.

 

3. If you just throw an ER at the guy with that range the worst you'll get is a mutual kill with occasional nothing due to miss. ER is a lot faster in this scenario.

 

4. On the other hand you'll sure as hell know that the 15 driver wants to lob things in your face. You have your EOS that can get you in without any warning unless he finds you which is often not the case.

 

I didn't say that forcing WVR makes you the god of air but it's your best shot at beating a 15. Flanker has far superior turning capability and given a reasonable merge you'll win a turnfight at least 9 out of 10 times. It's also much better equipped to approach a fight without giving away your presence. Most 15 drivers live in their instrument sub reality where if something disappears from the instruments they suddenly lose all their ability to do anything. You either ambush the guy or force a merge but you're never gonna kill a good 15 driver in a straight up fair BVR fight because that's not how it works.

[Santi871]

Disorganised mountain flying^^

 

Which is fine and fun if thats what you want to do. I do it sometimes as well.

 

But in an event or squadmatch, in open terrain and/or against an experienced squad you would be dead in seconds.

 

Oh absolutely. The Su27 has different capabilities than the F15C. BVR is the F15Cs game and no matter how hard you try it will be the king of BVR until the russians get a plane that can deploy R77s as effectively as the F15C can deploy AMRAAMs. Until then, you need to sneak up on them and exploit the 27's WVR capabilities.

 

Seeing as so few people can effectively use the Su27 with terrain masking and sneaking tactics, not even experienced squads expect it in my experience.

[Teknetinium]

Su-27S compare to F-15C have (telekodavoju informacuju) data link. That is what makes Su-27 agreat flanker whit EOS. I guise ED is working on it, since it is working in singelplayer.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Teknetinium

[FLANKERATOR]

Why tactic discussion is being brought up here. It's not about F-15 v Su-27, it's about a missile going blind no matter the target.

 

The Flanker is a serious threat in both BVR and CIC, asking Flanker drivers to ditch their standoff payload and go hug the trees is a bit silly Id say.

[Ragnarok]

Ok,

My opinion is that all depends on tactics. With the last hotfix I manage to have a 40 km hit with an ER. I could have a 50 km hit if my Su-27 has more energy. Before this I only managed 34 km as maximum range for ER.

 

I use a stealth attack. After firing I unlock the target and wait a feel seconds to lock again (25 seconds for long range depending on the target aspect). The enemy does not know that I fired on him not even when.

 

I only use R-27ER and R-73. I agree that flares are very useful against R-27ET and R-73. But the AIM-120 and the AIM-9 don’t work well either. You can easily run from an AIM-120C without loose lock for your R-27ER.

 

I attached some tacview to show what I’m talking about.

 

... and where is chaff and maneuver? you set "no reaction"? :music_whistling:

[borchi_2b]

Has anybody checked the Aim7 lately? My wingy and I did 14 month ago. We figured that even the AIM/ had a better PK then any other er27 in the "sim". That is my reason why i Quit flying fighter at the moment although I love it. I am waiting for a good Su27 that has proper missiles which work correct or close to the real deal. Or I am waiting for the f18c.

[Bruce_D]

... and where is chaff and maneuver? you set "no reaction"? :music_whistling:

 

No. AI Excelent. I just lock the target at the last minute. Look the tacview and you will see when the missile starts to move to the target.

 

In the begining you can see that the F-15C lauchs chaffs.

[Ragnarok]

Let's be clear, the problem is not in the chaff or seekrer-missiles than the index of probability on the background of sky. Behaves similarly to the background of the ground. The same is true for the ARH. Everything changes if you change this factor.

Tacview-20151109-145011-DCS.txt.rar

[*Rage*]

What does the index of probability do? Ground clutter type factor?

[Ragnarok]

Has anybody checked the Aim7 lately? My wingy and I did 14 month ago. We figured that even the AIM/ had a better PK then any other er27 in the "sim". That is my reason why i Quit flying fighter at the moment although I love it. I am waiting for a good Su27 that has proper missiles which work correct or close to the real deal. Or I am waiting for the f18c.

 

ohh yes, you is right. AI not recognized after a broken lock. Same with ARH.

[apocom]

Are you sure it is related to ER family?

 

Yeah, pretty sure. If you find only one source that states this differently, plz let me know.

 

Su-27S compare to F-15C have, (telekodavoju informacuju) data link. That is what makes Su-27 agreat flanker whit EOS. I guise ED is working on it, since it is working in singelplayer.

 

In a book I've read, the author stated that the two best features of the SU27 are IRST and data link :cry:

[Santi871]

Let's be clear, the problem is not in the chaff or seekrer-missiles than the index of probability on the background of sky. Behaves similarly to the background of the ground. The same is true for the ARH. Everything changes if you change this factor.

 

Would a SARH seeker pick up ground clutter reflection?

[Ragnarok]

What does the index of probability do? Ground clutter type factor?

 

now it looks like clean sky in background has ground clutter. It must be separated. Not be turned off, but to reduce in relation to the ground. I think that to avoid the level of heaven background need a extreme little speed like in "bell maneuver".

[Bruce_D]

In fact AI recognizes after a broken lock. If you fire a 27ER and wait 15 seconds to lock again AI will maneuver and drop chaffs. But if you wait more to lock again it things that it is a new missile and wait more to maneuver.

[Bruce_D]

ohh yes, you is right. AI not recognized after a broken lock. Same with ARH.

In fact ai recognizes after a broken lock. If you fire a 27ER and wait 15 seconds to lock again AI will maneuver and drop chaffs. But if you wait more to lock again it things that it is a new missile and wait more to maneuver.

[Ragnarok]

Would a SARH seeker pick up ground clutter reflection?

 

low speed (target and missiles) + chaff + 3-9 aspect + static heading + ground clutter (+AGL target) + small RCS (+ range from target) = a high probability that seeker mixed reflection, and priority is a reflection of the chaff. It is not necessary that the seeker on an aircraft radar to be confused. Just a seeker on a SARH or ARH.

 

ECM factor for discussion. Need to separate the functions salvo and targeted jamming.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Ragnarok