tovivan Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 Sorry, just to clarify, tests have been done where you've shot an SARH at a head to head co-alt or look up target which is non-maneuvering but deploying chaff and the missile is regularly defeated? Or if defeated how often? To paraphrase: something stinks in the world of DCS. :mad:
ED Team NineLine Posted December 17, 2015 ED Team Posted December 17, 2015 To paraphrase: something stinks in the world of DCS. :mad: Doesnt do any good with out hard facts and good bug reporting... these threads turn into mostly chest puffing and pissing matches... if you guys have good evidence something is wrong, see my sig on how to report it. If you have valuable info, share it here, or send it in PM to Chizh if you dont want to reveal your sources... Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug**
IASGATG Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 Okay so I did some quick testing since in 23 pages I cannot find any Tacview tracks that actually show repeatable tests. The finds are basically thus: The shooter needs to be at least 30 degrees off the defenders nose and the defender needs to put out at least 2 chaff a second. This was tested reliably and seemed to defeat the missile every time. Moreover, it continued to track the target until range to target was ~1.5nmi at which point it started to face interference and switched back and forth between the chaff and the target. At intervals slower than 0.5s release the missile would track all up to the beam. Rear aspect shots were not tried because the RMax of tail chase is ~2nmi. In a head to head shot no amount of chaff will defeat the missile. Even when chaff was released at >4/s the missile would still track and hit the target.R27ER Chaff Test.rar
apocom Posted December 17, 2015 Author Posted December 17, 2015 Doesnt do any good with out hard facts and good bug reporting... these threads turn into mostly chest puffing and pissing matches... if you guys have good evidence something is wrong, see my sig on how to report it. If you have valuable info, share it here, or send it in PM to Chizh if you dont want to reveal your sources... Hi, I tried to provide some sources in my first post. I understand that you want to have sources, because the amount of misinformation is quite high (the topics fault). I've learned something here: If something behaves strange, it's ground clutter. The problem is, for many things, we can say how they work IRL. But we simply don't know how far they are implemented. FC3 crafts are missing many features, and nearly every feature the russians use to hit with their missiles. From my POV it seems like the overall bad performance is realistic, but with the missing features they are worse than IRL. So, you guys have to decide if something is a bug or is working as intended, for example: - Why does the missile doesn't regain lock if it's lost? - Why does my aircraft radar never looses lock, no matter how much chaff is in the air? - Why does the missile chase chaff even if the radar doesn't illuminate that chaff? - Why is it not possible to fire a R27(E)R without activating the radar, using IRST and M-LINK and only activating the radar for the last few hundred meters? I think I provided sources for every point, but if you guys think something is missing, I would be happy to provide more detailed information.
Slipp Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 Maybe just a bit off topic... Do Russians use R-27ER in RL? The pics I've been seeing from their deployment in Syria, they seem to be using non E R-27.
tovivan Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 Maybe just a bit off topic... Do Russians use R-27ER in RL? The pics I've been seeing from their deployment in Syria, they seem to be using non E R-27. Then again, do they realistically believe they will have to be engaging in air-fights or is the arming with missiles more of a statement and precaution? After all, one would think the S-450 and Moskva would be the first line of defence instead of that missile.
Sweep Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 I haven't seen many AA-10C/D on Flankers in the Baltics, either. Lord of Salt
Slipp Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 I haven't seen many AA-10C/D on Flankers in the Baltics, either. Exactly, the pictures from NATO intercepts over Baltics mostly show Flankers with AA-10A/B. That's why I am asking here, you people seem to know your stuff. :)
GGTharos Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 - Why does the missile doesn't regain lock if it's lost? Why would it? in which cases do you want it to regain lock? - Why does my aircraft radar never looses lock, no matter how much chaff is in the air? Because that isn't modeled. Would it even lose lock? In which circumstances? We have SOME examples, but aircraft radars also have recovery modes. - Why does the missile chase chaff even if the radar doesn't illuminate that chaff? Is this even a big deal? At this point the missile has lost its target. It merely looks bad. - Why is it not possible to fire a R27(E)R without activating the radar, using IRST and M-LINK and only activating the radar for the last few hundred meters? Because M-LINK is generated by the radar, and you've just decided to not involve the radar ... so you're not tuning the SARH seekers to the radar frequency, not generating an m-link, etc ... in other words, that WCS just doesn't work that way. I think I provided sources for every point, but if you guys think something is missing, I would be happy to provide more detailed information. What sources? There's no source for #1, #2,#3 are modeling limitations, and you obviously don't have a useful source for #4 - nor would you probably be able to find a very good one ... I think about all you can get is the flanker and mig manuals, neither of which even HINT at launching an RF missile under EOS. The better info was acquired from maintenance personnel who explained to ED what the WCS does. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
IASGATG Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 So, you guys have to decide if something is a bug or is working as intended, for example: - Why does the missile doesn't regain lock if it's lost? It does attempt to regain target and on occasion will. Demonstrated in the test track I uploaded. - Why does my aircraft radar never looses lock, no matter how much chaff is in the air? Because FC3 is a very simplistic radar modelling. - Why does the missile chase chaff even if the radar doesn't illuminate that chaff? How do you know that the radar isn't illuminating the chaff? Chaff creates a massive bright spot in the sky that does last a long period of time - Why is it not possible to fire a R27(E)R without activating the radar, using IRST and M-LINK and only activating the radar for the last few hundred meters? Because the missile needs to be tuned to the radar before launch.
IASGATG Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 Maybe just a bit off topic... Do Russians use R-27ER in RL? The pics I've been seeing from their deployment in Syria, they seem to be using non E R-27. Same reason there are only the same four pictures of Flankers with R-77's. ;) 1
Slipp Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 Same reason there are only the same four pictures of Flankers with R-77's. ;) Thanks for the info. I will correct this in my missions then. PS: Love your mod, I hope that you do some magic on the Super 530D also. :)
pr1malr8ge Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) From my POV it seems like the overall bad performance is realistic, but with the missing features they are worse than IRL. are you talking about guidance or the whole kitten caboodle of missiles in general? or are you talking just specifically on the r27? Through my own source[ex eagle driver] involving the aim120b that a 20nm shot would require an extremely High Alpha perfectly timed maneuver to avoid. Yet in game it is a very LOW PK% shot. While I certainly DO not have any real world info on the RU missiles. I do have access to someone who has SHOT the Nato missiles and currently they do not perform in game like real life. But I do want to mention that we cannot expect ED to be able to get anything "perfect" there just is not enough information available to do so. Edited December 17, 2015 by pr1malr8ge For the WIN [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]If your desired effect on the target is making the pilot defecate his pants laughing then you can definitely achieve it with a launch like that.
holimoli Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 Okay so I did some quick testing since in 23 pages I cannot find any Tacview tracks that actually show repeatable tests. there were couple of posts with tracks about tests and how easily ERs can be defeated. We also created a bug report in the proper section for it. I think this thread has turned into a "who has the better source" thing many pages ago ;) :P [100☭] holimoli #13, 100-й КИАП
IASGATG Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 there were couple of posts with tracks about tests and how easily ERs can be defeated. We also created a bug report in the proper section for it. I think this thread has turned into a "who has the better source" thing many pages ago ;) :P Sorry, can you show link my directly to these because I cannot see anything. Maybe I'm blinded by chaff? ;)
pr1malr8ge Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 Sorry, can you show link my directly to these because I cannot see anything. Maybe I'm blinded by chaff? ;) You were not blinded by CHAFF! you were blinded by EOS LAZ Range Finder! For the WIN [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]If your desired effect on the target is making the pilot defecate his pants laughing then you can definitely achieve it with a launch like that.
apocom Posted December 17, 2015 Author Posted December 17, 2015 What sources? There's no source for #1, #2,#3 are modeling limitations, and you obviously don't have a useful source for #4 - nor would you probably be able to find a very good one ... I think about all you can get is the flanker and mig manuals, neither of which even HINT at launching an RF missile under EOS. The better info was acquired from maintenance personnel who explained to ED what the WCS does. Hi, if #1,#2 and #3 are simply not implemented there is no need to talk about it anymore. If features are missing it's no wonder that the missile behaves worse. For #4 I'm pretty sure that the SU27 handbook states it. I don't know if I should copy out there, but an additional source is The Naval Institute Guide to World Naval Weapons. It states Thus if the fighter [sU27] tracks its target entirely optically, it need turn on a radar illuminator only a short time before its semiactive radar missile arrives at the target.
holimoli Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 Sorry, can you show link my directly to these because I cannot see anything. Maybe I'm blinded by chaff? ;) :) This is the "bug report":http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=152429 In this thread ( might be the same as in the bug reporting thread..haven't opened it): http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=152573&page=4 edit: i think there was another thread where ppl posted some tracks..cant find it though :( [100☭] holimoli #13, 100-й КИАП
IASGATG Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 I just read and watched your test cases and replied. I don't think it's fair to say "We performed the most effective defensive maneuver whilst pumping out as much chaff as we can and the missiles were defeated, therefore the game is broken." For example, when there was the bug where IR's rejected all flares, the A-10 pilots were very unhappy when a MANPAD fired at them when idle and dropping 240 flares in 3 seconds and the missile still tracks. It's a similar sort of situation.
Frostie Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 Maybe just a bit off topic... Do Russians use R-27ER in RL? The pics I've been seeing from their deployment in Syria, they seem to be using non E R-27. Beware propaganda is rife in here.:D "[51☭] FROSTIE" #55 'Red 5'. Lord Flashheart 51st PVO "Bisons" - 100 KIAP Regiment Fastest MiG pilot in the world - TCR'10 https://100kiap.org
Ragnarok Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) Hey it's the same 4 pictures. ;) right. Russia no ER, the highlight of their A2A is R-27R. They make ICBM, S-400, IRBIS-E, Proton-M, submarines, Saturn AL-31, OLS and FLIRs, but they do not know how to make ER or something better. Su-35 and in it the pinnacle of technology the Russian army big R-27R, the icing on the cake. R-27R, the pillar of this mighty fighter. :thumbup: Edited December 17, 2015 by Ragnarok “The people will believe what the media tells them they believe.” — George Orwell
IASGATG Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 right. Russia no ER, the highlight of their A2A is R-27R. They make ICBM, S-400, IRBIS-E, Proton-M, submarines, Saturn AL-31, OLS and FLIRs, but they do not know how to make ER or something better. Su-35 and in it the pinnacle of technology the Russian army big R-27R, the icing on the cake. The pillar this mighty fighter. :thumbup: Not saying they don't have 27ER's, they have just enough to arm all 20 Su-35's they have. ;) Sorry, I'm messing around. It's hard to resist when it's so easy.
Frostie Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 Hey it's the same 4 pictures. ;) Should have numbered them 1-5 to notch the trolling. :D "[51☭] FROSTIE" #55 'Red 5'. Lord Flashheart 51st PVO "Bisons" - 100 KIAP Regiment Fastest MiG pilot in the world - TCR'10 https://100kiap.org
Sweep Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 I've seen seemingly operational R-27ERs on other pictures of Flankers running tactical intercepts... I just haven't seen many of them. We all know R-77M1 is fully operational, though. Lord of Salt
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