This is what the F-22 can do

[Guest Cali]

"During Exercise Northern Edge 2006 in Alaska in early June, the F-22 proved its mettle against as many as 40 "enemy aircraft" during simulated battles. The Raptor achieved a 108-to-zero kill ratio at that exercise. But the capabilities of the F-22 go beyond what it can do. It is also able to help other aircraft do better."

 

Story taken from http://www.af.mil

[britgliderpilot]

Wait one second - isn't the F-15C's kill ratio, by some fantastic mega-coincidence, currently standing at 107:0?

 

 

I don't doubt the Raptor's that good, not for one second, but I do think it's awfully convenient :P

[Guest Cali]

Remember that this was a exercise not real combat.

[Joe Kurr]

What kind of aircraft was it up against?

These kind of figures can be easily manipulated by choosing inferior aircraft, just to make the numbers look good.

For example, I can imagine it would do better against a T-38 or an A-4 than an F-15 or F-18.

 

With this I don't want to say the F-22 isn't a good aircraft, but I've seen too much of this kind of figures to believe them right away.

[Guest Cali]

What kind of aircraft was it up against?

These kind of figures can be easily manipulated by choosing inferior aircraft, just to make the numbers look good.

For example, I can imagine it would do better against a T-38 or an A-4 than an F-15 or F-18.

 

With this I don't want to say the F-22 isn't a good aircraft, but I've seen too much of this kind of figures to believe them right away.

 

I know F-15 and F-16's for sure, but I'm not sure if any other aircraft were in the battle.

[D-Scythe]

What kind of aircraft was it up against?

These kind of figures can be easily manipulated by choosing inferior aircraft, just to make the numbers look good.

For example, I can imagine it would do better against a T-38 or an A-4 than an F-15 or F-18.

 

With this I don't want to say the F-22 isn't a good aircraft, but I've seen too much of this kind of figures to believe them right away.

 

I believe they were up against full spec F-15C and F-16Cs, no handicaps for either side. Probably not the Alaskan F-15Cs, which are equipped with AESA radars, but I don't doubt that the Raptor would soon deal with those as well soon enough.

 

In any case, to an F-22, there is no difference between an F-15C and a T-38. Nothing is going to be able to see it, much less engage it, beyond visual range. The enemy might as well be fighting with F-5s and MiG-17s.

[spyro23]

Wait one second - isn't the F-15C's kill ratio, by some fantastic mega-coincidence, currently standing at 107:0?

Could you give me reference to this number (107:0)? Is this number apply only to USAF F-15's ?? If no - something is wrong because I'm preety sure that one Israeli F-15 was shoot down by the arabic Mig-21 (don't remember which country)

 

In any case, to an F-22, there is no difference between an F-15C and a T-38. Nothing is going to be able to see it, much less engage it, beyond visual range. The enemy might as well be fighting with F-5s and MiG-17s.

Basicaly I agree but.. in fact there is a difference, F-22 use AIM-120's in BVR combat so when it shoot at the other airctaft the missile can be detected. So the better airctaft the F-22 fight aginst the more is the chance that the opponent will avoid being shoot down.

Not only RCS or radar decide who will win but also RWR & countermeasures systems. I don't think that F-22 can keep this number fighting aginst for example Eurofighter Typhoon despite it is still better then opponent.

[GGTharos]

No F-15C has been shot down by another aircraft.

[Force_Feedback]

No F-15C has been shot down by another aircraft.

 

...but in Japan.

[britgliderpilot]

Could you give me reference to this number (107:0)? Is this number apply only to USAF F-15's ?? If no - something is wrong because I'm preety sure that one Israeli F-15 was shoot down by the arabic Mig-21 (don't remember which country)

 

All F-15's - USAF, Israeli, and Saudi are the ones that scored, IIRC.

 

I think an F-15 kill was indeed claimed by one of the Arab countries, but hey, the Serbs occasionally claim to have shot down three B2's and Hans-Joachim Marseille claimed to shoot down fifteen Spitfires in Africa on a day when no Spitfires were lost ;)

 

A claim isn't everything!

 

 

Basicaly I agree but.. in fact there is a difference, F-22 use AIM-120's in BVR combat so when it shoot at the other airctaft the missile can be detected. So the better airctaft the F-22 fight aginst the more is the chance that the opponent will avoid being shoot down.

Not only RCS or radar decide who will win but also RWR & countermeasures systems. I don't think that F-22 can keep this number fighting aginst for example Eurofighter Typhoon despite it is still better then opponent.

 

The better the aircraft the more chance of being shot down? Yes, rather a no-brainer . . . . . grin.

 

If you have no warning at all that there's anything else in the skies, and suddenly an AMRAAM goes active five miles away, you'd have to be almost superhuman to dodge it. Possible, just about . . . . but I wouldn't like to rely on it.

 

 

The Typhoon is an awesome aircraft, and I'm nothing less than delighted that we're getting it - however, the Raptor is still going to get first look/first shot against the Typhoon. After that . . . . . well, it's not really in any better a situation than an F-15 would be.

 

Even with all the goodies, you need to be able to see the enemy to shoot at it - Typhoon's radar (even in later tranches) isn't going to be any better than the Raptor's, and the Raptor has a smaller RCS. 'Tis a bit bleak.

 

Memo to El Presidente Tony (or soon-to-be-Presidente-Gordon): "Stay friends with the 'Merrikans"

[D-Scythe]

...but in Japan.

 

No, technically GG is right. No F-15C has been shot down in combat - Japan uses F-15Js ;)

 

Could you give me reference to this number (107:0)? Is this number apply only to USAF F-15's ?? If no - something is wrong because I'm preety sure that one Israeli F-15 was shoot down by the arabic Mig-21 (don't remember which country)

 

Not according to the Israeli's. One F-15C was hit by a missile fired from a MiG-21 (Syrian, I'm almost sure). It was heavily damaged, but the other Eagles covered its retreat and the pilot of the damaged plane managed to make it back to base and land the Eagle in (more or less) one piece. The Syrians claimed the kill, though.

 

There's also another story of a Syrian MiG-25 shooting down an Israeli F-15 in the years leading up to the Lebanon war. Apparently, the Syrians lured the IAF with some MiG-21s, and when two F-15s engaged, they were ambushed by two MiG-25s. Two R-40s brought down one of the Eagles, but the other managed to evade all of his, and returned fire, bringing down a Foxbat. That was the Syrian/Soviet story.

 

The Israeli story was that two F-15s were vectored onto the Syrian MiGs before managing to bring down one Foxbat as the others retreated. Thus, the IAF claimed the MiG but denied the loss of an Eagle, while the Syrians/Russians claimed the 1 to 1 score.

[tflash]

While the F-22 is scoring hit after hit in the press, the A-10A's, F-14's, F/A-18C's, Vipers and even the Superbug are providing sterling service in Afghanistan and Iraq, where it counts.

 

I guess there are two worlds: the Pentagon high-brass resort where multi-billion aircraft perform to please their investors, and unfortunately the world where real conflicts are dealt with less interstellar aspirations.

 

Goody-goody that the F-22 is smashing the non-existent air-to-air treath!

 

Keep us informed of these big feats!

[Prophet_169th]

Those A-10's, F-14's, F-18s and F-16s had to start somewhere.

 

They were once in the paper, before seeing real action.

 

It is not so smart to throw an aircraft you have invested billions into, into an engagement, only to find out that there was a fatal algorithm mistake in some software...... and lose a bunch.

[bflagg]

give 'em time.. the need really isn't there yet nor are the numbers ...

[spyro23]

A claim isn't everything!

:thumbup: Agree,

I don't want to make conspiracy teories, this is only my 2 cents.

Personally I don't see big difference between Israeli and Arabic claims. Arabs have lost all wars aginst Israel so they need at least some succes. On the other hand Israel propably didn't reveal all info about past wars. They don't like to talk about things that went bad and I don't wonder why. Just try to find how the hell (Syrian I believe) Mig-23 landed on the Israeli AFB without being detected? It will be secret for a long time.

The additional reason why Israel wouldn't admit loss is because Eagle was shot down by so inferior jet and ocsolete missile (R-3). Why I belive this is propable? When F-117 was shot down USAF tried to convince world that it was destroed by SAM & Kolczuga or SAM & Tamara, then after some time by Mig-29 or (edited) Mig-21. Desinformation, propaganda (no matter how you call it) always been importand factor that helps win battles and ot only bad guys use it.

 

The better the aircraft the more chance of being shot down? Yes, rather a no-brainer . . . . . grin.

:doh: Excuse me my language. I'm not english native speaker. I ment that the better opponent is the better chances he has to survive when is engaged by F-22(but still to small:))

If you have no warning at all that there's anything else in the skies, and suddenly an AMRAAM goes active five miles away, you'd have to be almost superhuman to dodge it. Possible, just about . . . . but I wouldn't like to rely on it.

Yep, me to, but its better then nothing. If those systems are not effective why so many countries spend bilions in its development?

 

 

Edited:

That Mig was has been a defector.

[GGTharos]

:thumbup: Agree,

I don't want to make conspiracy teories, this is only my 2 cents.

Personally I don't see big difference between Israeli and Arabic claims. Arabs have lost all wars aginst Israel so they need at least some succes. On the other hand Israel propably didn't reveal all info about past wars. They don't like to talk about things that went bad and I don't wonder why. Just try to find how the hell (Syrian I believe) Mig-23 landed on the Israeli AFB without being detected? It will be secret for a long time.

The additional reason why Israel wouldn't admit loss is because Eagle was shot down by so inferior jet and ocsolete missile (R-3). Why I belive this is propable? When F-117 was shot down USAF tried to convince world that it was destroed by SAM & Kolczuga or SAM & Tamara, then after some time by Mig-29 but in fact by Mig-21. Desinformation, propaganda (no matter how you call it) always been importand factor that helps win battles and ot only bad guys use it.

 

I think you're looking at conspiracies too much, and maybe event he wrong way ;)

The MiG-23 could have easily been a defector. Israel handily admitted their losses to to the SA-6 system in Yom-Kippur IIRC ...

 

The F-117 was shot down by a volley of SA-3, and this is confirmed by Serbs. The MiG-anything story is a complete crock. The SA-3 commander had the following fairly unique advantages:

 

He didn't much care about CAP attacking him.

His search radar was pretty much immune to HARMs (long wavelength)

He only needed to turn on his search radar for one or two sweeps

His search radar was better at detecting stealth aircraft (long wavelength)

He already knew the F-117 was going to be flying there

He only needed to turn the search radar on to fix the F-117's position for tracking

The F-117 was tracked and shot down using optical CLOS guidance - the SA-3 is a command-guided missile and as such it does not need to rely on radar at certain ranges and altitudes.

 

The only propaganda there came from Serbia and Russia, when they claimed things like shooting down amazing numebrs of (manned) aircraft, inluding a B-2 or two ... interestingly enough, people were counting the correct number of B-2's present on airbases ... ;)

[SimFreak]

So ....F22 has a lot of ammo I guess......

[ivan_v4]

It's like the story of the Tu-160 entering US Airspace undetected. :D

[GGTharos]

So ....F22 has a lot of ammo I guess......

 

No. In fact, they installed the 'unlimited ammo' option on it :megalol:

[Pilotasso]

...but in Japan.

 

Would you elaborate on that? :)

[bSr.LCsta]

I have come to realize that if you want to keep a thread on the front page for any length of time just add the words "F-22 owns" in the header.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

The only propaganda there came from Serbia and Russia, when they claimed things like shooting down amazing numebrs of (manned) aircraft, inluding a B-2 or two ... interestingly enough, people were counting the correct number of B-2's present on airbases ... ;)

Any comments from the moderator here? This thread should be about military aviation and facts not politics.

[Guest Cali]

Originally Posted by GGTharos

The only propaganda there came from Serbia and Russia, when they claimed things like shooting down amazing numebrs of (manned) aircraft, inluding a B-2 or two ... interestingly enough, people were counting the correct number of B-2's present on airbases ...

 

Any comments from the moderator here? This thread should be about military aviation and facts not politics.

 

 

Looks like GG has a friend :music_whistling:

[SUBS17]

:thumbup: Agree,

I don't want to make conspiracy teories, this is only my 2 cents.

Personally I don't see big difference between Israeli and Arabic claims. Arabs have lost all wars aginst Israel so they need at least some succes. On the other hand Israel propably didn't reveal all info about past wars. They don't like to talk about things that went bad and I don't wonder why. Just try to find how the hell (Syrian I believe) Mig-23 landed on the Israeli AFB without being detected? It will be secret for a long time.

The additional reason why Israel wouldn't admit loss is because Eagle was shot down by so inferior jet and ocsolete missile (R-3). Why I belive this is propable? When F-117 was shot down USAF tried to convince world that it was destroed by SAM & Kolczuga or SAM & Tamara, then after some time by Mig-29 or (edited) Mig-21. Desinformation, propaganda (no matter how you call it) always been importand factor that helps win battles and ot only bad guys use it.

 

 

:doh: Excuse me my language. I'm not english native speaker. I ment that the better opponent is the better chances he has to survive when is engaged by F-22(but still to small:))

Yep, me to, but its better then nothing. If those systems are not effective why so many countries spend bilions in its development?

 

 

Edited:

That Mig was has been a defector.

 

The Mig was stolen by an Israeli spy;)(you can see it at the IAF museum in BeerSheba)

[Crusty]

GG, IF you are of the opinion that only "the other guys" used propoganda

in that conflict, you are a well programmed citizen indeed..wake up:chair: