ECM or R-73s?

[Cybermat47]

So, I recently read a guide to Su-27 combat that stated that the best way to use the Su-27 is while WVR, locking on targets with the OLS-27, not RADAR, and using IR missiles. I didn't like it, but I had to agree, as NATO and their allies have access to AMRAAMs, while the Su-27 only has R-27 ERs and R-27 Rs for BVR, and they need to stay locked on the target (which probably just had it's AMRAAM pitbull, and is currently diving away from you and popping chaff :mad:).

 

Upon learning this, I wanted to have as many IR missiles as possible. So, is it worth losing the ECM pods to have two more R-73s?

 

And just a general question about ECM, when do I use it? Right now I use it when enemy RADAR pops up on my RWR, but is this the right way to use it? And what exactly does it do? Does it reduce the range that bandits and SAMs can engage me at? If so, I might keep them on the Flanker.

[Brisse]

ECM modelling in the sim is a bit simplistic compared to real life, but it can be useful in BVR. What it does is to flood the enemy radar with noise, and as long as the noise is louder than the radar echo, the enemy won't be able to see exactly where you are. They will still know your bearing (because they can see the noise) but they won't be able to identify you, range you or make a proper lock on you. AMRAAM's have a home on jam mode where they lock on to the noise from your ECM, but it's inaccurate and it's difficult to know when to fire the AMRAAM since they don't know the exact range. As you close in on the target, the radar echos will get stronger and at a certain point it will be able to overpower the noise. It's important for you to know approximately where that is so that you can turn off your ECM when you get into this range, otherwise it's going to do you more harm than good. ECM in the game has no use within visual range as far as I know, but it might help you to quickly get from BVR to WVR which is important if you are in the Su-27 and the enemy have AMRAAMS. Is it worth trading two R-73's for ECM? You decide.

[Cybermat47]

^^^

 

You're right, it does sound like it makes the transition from BVR to WVR a lot easier. I guess I'll be keeping the ECM.

 

Thanks for your help :)

[DarkFire]

ECM currently seems to deny an enemy RADAR system the following information:

 

1. Range.

2. Altitude.

3. Type (in the case of RADARs that have a non-cooperative target identification capability).

4. Flight direction.

 

So, if you're being illuminated by an enemy RADAR and you turn on ECM, the only information the enemy will know about you is bearing, at least until their RADAR becomes close enough to burn through the jamming power your aircraft is emitting.

 

So, what ECM enables you to do is to play around with the criteria that are denied to the enemy. It can be very useful for masking changes in altitude, flight direction and range to a point. It's main and very real disadvantage is that turning on ECM will advertise your position to enemy RADAR systems at ranges far beyond the point at which they would have obtained a primary skin paint.

 

Is it useful to have? Yes, it can be. Imagine this scenario: you're in your Flanker (or MiG-29S for that matter) and you're cruising along at 10,000m when you suddenly get detected by an F-15 that appears off your nose. At this point the Eagle driver knows where you are and your altitude. His radar will probably also tell him that his target is identified as an Su-27. You know that trying to take on the Eagle with your R-27ER's at BVR ranges might be fraught with danger so instead you turn on the ECM. This now denies the Eagle pilot any information about your altitude and flight direction so now you have options:

 

1. You could turn tail and run. Your ECM will mask your change of direction.

 

2. You could do a maximum rate dive to very low level and try to hide in the terrain from the Eagle's RADAR. If you duck behind a mountain so that the Eagle no longer has line of sight to you, and then turn off your ECM, as far as the Eagle driver is concerned his target just magically disappeared in front of him. This enables you, the Flanker pilot, to do lots of things like trying to entice the Eagle in to a WVR fight, or to escape etc. etc.

 

ECM can be situationally very useful. What isn't at all useful is what some people seem to do: turning on ECM 5 seconds after they take off and then leave it on permanently. Doing that merely advertises your position for hundreds of miles in every direction.

 

Is it worth swapping for 2 x R-73? Depends. That's really a subjective question that only you can answer. Some people will never use ECM and find having an additional pair of R-73's to be very important. Some people prefer having the ECM pods. Depends entirely on what you want to do and how you want to do it.

[Exorcet]

ECM currently seems to deny an enemy RADAR system the following information:

 

1. Range.

2. Altitude.

3. Type (in the case of RADARs that have a non-cooperative target identification capability).

4. Flight direction.

 

Range can't be exactly determined, but it can be estimated. Also given is target elevation on the HUD and angular velocity. This can also be combined with RWR data and AWACS data to build more information.

 

 

 

So, what ECM enables you to do is to play around with the criteria that are denied to the enemy.

Agreed, though this usefulness can be limited.

 

Is it useful to have? Yes, it can be. Imagine this scenario: you're in your Flanker (or MiG-29S for that matter) and you're cruising along at 10,000m when you suddenly get detected by an F-15 that appears off your nose. At this point the Eagle driver knows where you are and your altitude. His radar will probably also tell him that his target is identified as an Su-27. You know that trying to take on the Eagle with your R-27ER's at BVR ranges might be fraught with danger so instead you turn on the ECM. This now denies the Eagle pilot any information about your altitude and flight direction so now you have options:

 

1. You could turn tail and run. Your ECM will mask your change of direction.

I find this to be a good tactic, turning to run while keeping the enemy focused on you helps your allies. I don't find that it does much for you yourself though.

 

2. You could do a maximum rate dive to very low level and try to hide in the terrain from the Eagle's RADAR. If you duck behind a mountain so that the Eagle no longer has line of sight to you, and then turn off your ECM, as far as the Eagle driver is concerned his target just magically disappeared in front of him. This enables you, the Flanker pilot, to do lots of things like trying to entice the Eagle in to a WVR fight, or to escape etc. etc.

I'm less sure about this. If you get locked, the F-15 knows exactly what you did and even knows your approximate range now. I think most experienced F-15 pilots would also assume this tactic being used and watch the mountains. It's not that it's not a viable tactic, but use with caution.

 

 

 

Is it worth swapping for 2 x R-73? Depends. That's really a subjective question that only you can answer. Some people will never use ECM and find having an additional pair of R-73's to be very important. Some people prefer having the ECM pods. Depends entirely on what you want to do and how you want to do it.

 

I mainly fly the F-15 and don't use ECM, although I don't have to worry about TWS as much. The Russian planes do. ECM at the very least does deny TWS. Still, I'd prefer to get in unnoticed at all. When I do use ECM, it's on egress, in an attempt to confuse the enemy team to help my friends.

[Drona]

You could turn tail and run. Your ECM will mask your change of direction.

 

There's one problem with this, if the Eagle pilot has burned through the ECM, then the change of direction will be known to him ;) but at ranges further out, what you say holds true.

[Darkwolf]

While ECM is ok against Eagle when using adapted tactics, is it absolutely useless against russian planes - HUD will give you aspect, while SPO will give you range/closure.

[AussieGhost789]

I'm less sure about this. If you get locked, the F-15 knows exactly what you did and even knows your approximate range now. I think most experienced F-15 pilots would also assume this tactic being used and watch the mountains. It's not that it's not a viable tactic, but use with caution.

 

I was going to make this point too. Because the target designator still appears on the HUD, the pilot of the opposing aircraft will see the target designator move behind whatever terrain you have chosen to hide behind. Whilst specific information is still missing, this alone is enough to tell your opponent what you are doing. As Exorcet said, it doesn't mean the tactic isn't viable and useful (in fact, terrain masking can be a very effective tactic), but your opponent will be aware of what you're doing and will try and anticipate where you will appear. Or he will turn around and gain seperation, because who really wants to mess with a Flanker in the hills? :pilotfly:

[Ultra]

I don't think ECM is worth it (or I personally have not used it to effect) because an enemy has already burned through way before either of you are within appropriate missile launch range.

[AussieGhost789]

While ECM is ok against Eagle when using adapted tactics, is it absolutely useless against russian planes - HUD will give you aspect, while SPO will give you range/closure.

 

It's still good at denying long range shots. Even if you as the pilot can guess with reasonable accuracy the range of the opponent, your radar doesn't have enough information for the missile to fly an intercept trajectory. Instead it will fly a much less energy efficient flight path.

[Ultra]

It's still good at denying long range shots. Even if you as the pilot can guess with reasonable accuracy the range of the opponent, your radar doesn't have enough information for the missile to fly an intercept trajectory. Instead it will fly a much less energy efficient flight path.

 

Except that burn through is at like 40 nmi, so nobody usually cares if anyone launches at that range with our missiles. :D

[AussieGhost789]

I don't think ECM is worth it (or I personally have not used it to effect) because an enemy has already burned through way before either of you are within appropriate missile launch range.

 

I do agree that the limited range of missiles does reduce the practicality of ECM with the way it is modeled in the sim, in that you burn through quite a bit before any launch range that will give you a decent pK. But it certainly does have its uses in particular situations. Personally, I always take ECM on the Flanker because, well, for starters I don't often find myself in a situation where I need the extra Archers (If I've made it to a merge I usually end up with few remaining missiles and/or low fuel, so I usually end up RTB'ing), and also because I find it can be a handy tool to have available when needed.

[Tello]

But if someone chose to use "long range shots" I would not bother doing much about it anyway. Of course I could be misunderstanding your assumption of what a "long range shot is", but in current version of DCS I simply do not chose a tactic or are not afraid of pilots engaging me/them beyond ecm burn-through range, that is a wasted missile in my book.

 

How stupid I am or might be :P I only take the pods when I am going for some ground attack with the flanker. I enjoy that from time to time.

 

It's still good at denying long range shots.

[AussieGhost789]

Except that burn through is at like 40 nmi, so nobody usually cares if anyone launches at that range with our missiles. :D

 

Burn through is closer to 20 miles in HPRF (about 22, from memory). You can definitely make shots at ranges where ECM would make a difference. Especially when it's a complacent target that doesn't appreciate the threat of a head on shot fired from 50,000 in TWS :P

[Ultra]

I do agree that the limited range of missiles does reduce the practicality of ECM with the way it is modeled in the sim, in that you burn through quite a bit before any launch range that will give you a decent pK. But it certainly does have its uses in particular situations. Personally, I always take ECM on the Flanker because, well, for starters I don't often find myself in a situation where I need the extra Archers (If I've made it to a merge I usually end up with few remaining missiles and/or low fuel, so I usually end up RTB'ing), and also because I find it can be a handy tool to have available when needed.

 

Fair enough,

whereas I like to take the R-73s so I can be more liberal with my use of heaters such as when I come across an A-10 on my CAP flight that may require two hits. :)

[Ultra]

Burn through is closer to 20 miles in HPRF (about 22, from memory). You can definitely make shots at ranges where ECM would make a difference. Especially when it's a complacent target that doesn't appreciate the threat of a head on shot fired from 50,000 in TWS :P

 

Hmm, I feel like I would remember it being that close, I'm not sure.

[AussieGhost789]

But if someone chose to use "long range shots" I would not bother doing much about it anyway. Of course I could be misunderstanding your assumption of what a "long range shot is", but in current version of DCS I simply do not chose a tactic or are not afraid of pilots engaging me/them beyond ecm burn-through range, that is a wasted missile in my book.

 

How stupid I am or might be :P I only take the pods when I am going for some ground attack with the flanker. I enjoy that from time to time.

 

Don't be a complacent target that doesn't respect a TWS shot coming from 50,000! :P Also, the Flankers R-27's can make kills at pretty significant ranges if the target chooses not to treat the missile as a threat.

[AussieGhost789]

Hmm, I feel like I would remember it being that close, I'm not sure.

 

22 miles is still pretty far with our missiles at our typical engagement altitudes (being 20,000 - 26,000 feet). The dangerous shots that are closer to burn through ranges are the ones that come from double that height.

[Ultra]

22 miles is still pretty far with our missiles at our typical engagement altitudes (being 20,000 - 26,000 feet). The dangerous shots that are closer to burn through ranges are the ones that come from double that height.

 

Yes I agree.

 

Although another point to consider is, IIRC, having ECM on will give you a later warning of an incoming AIM-120. Which is quite a big deal when it's only about 10 seconds to begin with.

[Tello]

When you say it like that maybe I should try and improve my tactics :D

 

Don't be a complacent target that doesn't respect a TWS shot coming from 50,000! :P Also, the Flankers R-27's can make kills at pretty significant ranges if the target chooses not to treat the missile as a threat.

[AussieGhost789]

Yes I agree.

 

Although another point to consider is, IIRC, having ECM on will give you a later warning of an incoming AIM-120. Which is quite a big deal when it's only about 10 seconds to begin with.

 

Well you've only got your ECM on of you're aware of the threat and taking measures against that threat, so there shouldn't be any surprise slammers. You should be anticipating an incoming missile at any given time, remembering that if you are jamming you will hear a lock tone if the target is locking you and has not burned through, and should therefore expect possible HOJ shots. Also, you shouldn't use ECM inside of burn through. So, if the shot is taken outside of burn through in HOJ, then the ECM will help you by reducing the missiles pK due to a lack of intercept trajectory. If the shot is taken inside of burn through, then you shouldn't have ECM on anyway.

 

Edit: one thing I wonder is what the burn through range is for the AMRAAM's seeker. It is clearly affected by ECM, as that would explain the later lock warning (because seeker is in HOJ mode and does not get a proper lock until it's closer). It's possible that this is actually advantageous, in terms of reducing the missiles pK. An extra second or two before the missile flies an intercept trajectory could be the difference between it making the intercept and it missing. Or it might not be... This bit is just me brainstorming.

Edited December 14, 2015 by AussieGhost789

[Ultra]

Well you've only got your ECM on of you're aware of the threat and taking measures against that threat, so there shouldn't be any surprise slammers. You should be anticipating an incoming missile at any given time, remembering that if you are jamming you will hear a lock tone if the target is locking you and has not burned through, and should therefore expect possible HOJ shots. Also, you shouldn't use ECM inside of burn through. So, if the shot is taken outside of burn through in HOJ, then the ECM will help you by reducing the missiles pK due to a lack of intercept trajectory. If the shot is taken inside of burn through, then you shouldn't have ECM on anyway.

 

Yes, I guess my point was that it requires disciplined management.

[Sweep]

I think if you're operating in a flight, it might be a good idea to have one guy take the music pods and sit back behind the rest of the flight.

 

As long as your jamming guy, the rest of your flight, and the threat player are all on the same line of bearing the bad guy has a hard time locking the non-jammers. Its a "D" move, but you do whatever you can to give the other guy a bad day, right? :P

[Mamba]

If they're main purpose is to delay a launch, which we believe it is, then they clearly don't work and aren't worth choosing over the archers.

 

With that aside, it's upto you whether you think they're worth the minor mind games and distractions you can cause with them (since those do have some merit).

 

Overall, throughout every 1.2 version I felt that their biggest contribution was drag.

[Frostie]

As a solo pilot going straight up BVR against an F-15 is not easy by yourself, to counter the limitations of how many bandits you can get defensive at once it's wiser to sneak your attacks. Otherwise that F-15 that you're battling to press but winning will soon be supported by another, you don't have the luxury of spamming actives at several bandits to create space so getting outnumbered comes very easy, you're always going to be slower and probably lower than them so barring some favourable terrain will no doubt end up a wreck.

 

When you're on your own to get the best out of the Flanker for surprise attacks from any altitude, it sounds daft but Jammers are a must. They allow you to mask around your target upto 45km, combined with notching and flanking you can then choose your moment, it's an Eagle pilots nightmare.