ECM help request

[Evers]

if LL jams radar, then what does BR do (keybind for ecm) ?

[Zeus67]

if LL jams radar, then what does BR do (keybind for ecm) ?

 

BR is the jammer.

LL is the chaff/flares dispensing program switch.

[jojo]

It isn't missing. They have interference blankers so that won't self jam.

 

How do you know ???

[GGTharos]

Because I have the appropriate RL technical manuals. If your jammer is making your own radar, your radar and jammers are probably both making up your rwr. This is why aircraft with such integrated systems use some form of interference blanker/scheduler and like Zeus pointed out, sometimes you can control schedule priorities from the pit.

[rrohde]

"making" = "masking"

 

Guess auto-correct was overzealous. ;)

[rrohde]

Isn't the best option to include it on a "special" realism setting like take off assist. That way everybody can play it as they choose.

 

Negative on that. These special settings are typically used to aid the pilot in some way, not enable or disable simulated aircraft system features....

[Dozer_4]

In the real aircraft the jammer is so powerful that it jams its own radar. So the priority switch is there to control that. If it is on radar priority, jamming signal is weak so you can use your radar. On jammer priority your own radar is useless.

 

Does this jammer priority have any additional/ different effect on the radars of said SU-27 and F-15 as opposed to the "standard" mode?

[Zeus67]

Does this jammer priority have any additional/ different effect on the radars of said SU-27 and F-15 as opposed to the "standard" mode?

 

It is not anout how the jammer affects other aircraft but how affects your own radar.

 

In short you have to decide what you want jammer protection or radar.

[domini99]

+1 for realism

[luckyhendrix]

...

Please don't consider MP balance, only model the aircraft to the best of your abilities!

 

Because I have the appropriate RL technical manuals. If your jammer is making your own radar, your radar and jammers are probably both making up your rwr. This is why aircraft with such integrated systems use some form of interference blanker/scheduler and like Zeus pointed out, sometimes you can control schedule priorities from the pit.

 

Can you explain this in more details ? Or do you have a link that explains it ?

Edited December 27, 2015 by luckyhendrix

[Croaker47]

I'd rather have realism, especially in the simulator difficulty. You're probably not flying a Mirage against a Su-27 for the 100% PK, and jamming your own radar sounds interesting.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Dragoon47

[iLOVEwindmills]

It is not anout how the jammer affects other aircraft but how affects your own radar.

 

In short you have to decide what you want jammer protection or radar.

 

He's asking if the 'max power' mode has a notably increased effect over the regular jamming mode which still allows you to use your own radar. Guess the question is, is it so much more effective at jamming that it is worth losing your radar over?

 

Though I'd imagine this would be more of a wild guess than anything you'd be able to get real life data for.

[bgrade]

The term simulation has been watered down over the years and is slowly becoming blended with "game" because of people who don't understand how something works. Yes there are various level of simulation but DCS has always struck me as an advanced simulation. I say, if the darned thing has a jammer that powerful and you can simulate its operation accurately, then go for it!

 

+1 for radar blinding cancer causing jammer!

[Zeus67]

Anything about ECM is WAGuess. We only got that tidbit of info in an offhand manners as in "Oh! that switch is because the jammer jams our own radar."

 

What are the effects, how it works, why there are two switches (the same switch is in the throttle, but this seems to be a spring loaded one), we will never know.

[ody81]

Anything about ECM is WAGuess. We only got that tidbit of info in an offhand manners as in "Oh! that switch is because the jammer jams our own radar."

 

What are the effects, how it works, why there are two switches (the same switch is in the throttle, but this seems to be a spring loaded one), we will never know.

 

I'll throw my WAGuess in lol

A spring loaded switch on the throttle would make sense to temporarily prioritize the radar over the ECM for taking a quick peek at the current situation. Would make a lot of sense actually.

[Manuel_108]

Great! Now the "game balancing" has finally reached DCS! Game balancing and "the most realistic flight simulator" should never mix. I feared that the day would come but someday DCS will be Warthunder 2.0.

[ttaylor0024]

Great! Now the "game balancing" has finally reached DCS! Game balancing and "the most realistic flight simulator" should never mix. I feared that the day would come but someday DCS will be Warthunder 2.0.

 

You're making this into a much bigger deal than it needs to be. Go ahead and find unclassified material covering the operation of the RWR in the M2000C and forward it to the devs to get rid of this "war thunder recreation." You do realize that the RWR in the A-10 isn't correctly modeled either, right? Or how about the anti-jamming modes of the MiG-21? Let's not even get started with the GROM on the fishbed either, or any of the FC3 jets included in DCS. They simply don't know the intricacies of the jamming system, and for that reason it's simplified...... Just like the jamming systems in every other aircraft in DCS.

[jojo]

People are crazy...

 

There are a lot of stuff to fix on the radar, like bull's eye, vertical and azimuth scan area control, IFF...

 

And you are whining about the first piece of information as if it was a life or death issue.

 

I didn't saw so many intransigent hard core simmer when some requested unrealistic AG weapons :doh:

[ody81]

Great! Now the "game balancing" has finally reached DCS! Game balancing and "the most realistic flight simulator" should never mix. I feared that the day would come but someday DCS will be Warthunder 2.0.

 

Realism has it's limits. I think pinching classified information to make a flight sim more realistic is treason yeah?

 

You just make do with what you can get and what you can guess, between this and F4 you can't get much more realism as a civilian at home on your pc.

[Manuel_108]

Guys, I unfortunately missed the statement where Zeus said that they don't have any information on how that jammer function works, I gathered that they had the information but intended to leave it out simply for balancing reasons.

[ody81]

Guys, I unfortunately missed the statement where Zeus said that they don't have any information on how that jammer function works, I gathered that they had the information but intended to leave it out simply for balancing reasons.

 

It's all good, I wasn't being rude lol. I completely understand where you were coming from, even if you got lost.

There's 2 good study sims out there, I'd also hate to see one compromise for accessibility.

[Pikey]

I think all capabilities that are not likely to be discovered to fine and comparable levels have to be simplified and managed by Eagle Dynamics for interoperabilities sake.

 

Genuinely where ECM and ECCM come into this everything gets tricky to simulate and people should understand. It's fine to say things should be available because they exist in the module, but that module does not exist in a vacuum and has to work in single player and multiplayer and the module will affect the DCS World battlefield and that affect needs to be anticipated and designed to work in a realistic way with all the other simpolifications that currently exist.

 

I hate the concept of balancing as much as everyone else in the thread but a reasonable approach would be to take a look at the big picture. Could we not call it "Standardising" the ECM to fit with DCSW?

[ody81]

I think all capabilities that are not likely to be discovered to fine and comparable levels have to be simplified and managed by Eagle Dynamics for interoperabilities sake.

 

Genuinely where ECM and ECCM come into this everything gets tricky to simulate and people should understand. It's fine to say things should be available because they exist in the module, but that module does not exist in a vacuum and has to work in single player and multiplayer and the module will affect the DCS World battlefield and that affect needs to be anticipated and designed to work in a realistic way with all the other simpolifications that currently exist.

 

I hate the concept of balancing as much as everyone else in the thread but a reasonable approach would be to take a look at the big picture. Could we not call it "Standardising" the ECM to fit with DCSW?

 

In a sim where a p-51 can (and does often) go toe to toe with mig-21's, modern anti-air and su-27's, I'd say module inter-operation has already gone out the window.

 

Remember one day we'll have a spitfire and an f-14 coexisting somehow, why bother trying to get a square peg through a round hole. Let everything be as it should be, if people don't want a certain aircraft's certain ECM or 'system X' conflicting with anything else, don't allow it on the server. Keeps the purists happy, should keep everyone happy.

[xaoslaad]

People are crazy...

 

There are a lot of stuff to fix on the radar, like bull's eye, vertical and azimuth scan area control, IFF...

 

And you are whining about the first piece of information as if it was a life or death issue.

 

I didn't saw so many intransigent hard core simmer when some requested unrealistic AG weapons :doh:

To be fair the realism setting people have suggested isn't a bad idea.

 

People know you can't possibly do 100% realism for a lot of reasons and I think they are more than understanding when someone says it's classified or it's something normally only the ground crew could do, but we added the ability in the MFD (HOF in the A-10C), etc. But where reasonable we usually like as close to realism as possible.

 

Zues says the other planes should have the problem, GGTharos says they don't. As soon as someone gets around to pointing to the technical documentation on 3 MiG29 variants, the 21, F-15C, Su-27, and Su-33 I'll believe whichever camp. My stint in the military taught me never to believe 'spoken' word. Either way it doesn't really matter; just go for as realistic as reasonable. What was reasonable in FC2 may be simplistic with todays methods and computing power.

 

I love the M-2000C don't get me wrong. It's a blast to fly.

 

But my understanding from the quick start is that the jammer presently doesn't work at all. After reading this thread I am not sure if that's true or not, but either way it suffers due to short missile range thanks to the long standing DCS problem with missiles and at least what I perceive as a near total lack of countermeasures right now. Missiles are sailing at you long before you can hope to hit due to the short range of missiles, right or wrong. A stronger jammer to force them in closer before firing would be welcome, for my part.

 

Re: the unrealistic weapons, people are trying to get their multirole dream fulfilled. Some people love A-A, some A-G and a multirole has something for everyone. They're probably people who like A-G and are just trying to find a way to use this aircraft the way they want, even if it wasn't meant for it. I like A-G more, but some A-A for a change is always welcome, thouhh again that's just me. Anyway, don't take it as wanting unrealistic stuff; if anything take it as people who like A-G wanting to be excited about your interceptor.

[OnlyforDCS]

What are the effects, how it works, why there are two switches (the same switch is in the throttle, but this seems to be a spring loaded one), we will never know.

 

I find it incredible that we are on page 5 of this thread, and with all the requests for realism, game balance etc. no one has asked the proper question regarding this system. So how does the jammer work in DCS? Does it work at all currently? What happens when I flick that switch to ON? Will it force enemy planes to get close, and if it does what is the burn through range?

 

I mean currently in DCS the ECM modelling is very simple. It is also close to useless considering the range of most BVR missiles in the game, I.E. burn through range is higher than any pk shot anyway. I think Zeus and his crew have bigger fish to fry unless the M2000C jammer is significantly more powerful than the FC3 jammers.

Edited December 27, 2015 by OnlyforDCS