R550 Magic 2 performance

[jojo]

But how do we know is not intended that way? What says is not correct?

 

Because Magic 2 weight and dimensions are almost the same as AIM-9M, it doesn't make any sense to make it underperforming compared to older R-60 design.

[OnlyforDCS]

But how do we know is not intended that way? What says is not correct?

 

Seriously? :megalol:

[Brisse]

Some numbers to back it up wouldn't hurt, even though it seems pretty obvious something is off.

[mvsgas]

Because Magic 2 weight and dimensions are almost the same as AIM-9M, it doesn't make any sense to make it underperforming compared to older R-60 design.

 

Seriously? :megalol:

 

Will see what ED does then. I'm actually trying to find info to show that is wrong, not just saying:"I don't like it, fix it!". I'm looking in ".gouv.fr" and ".fr" web sites as well as ".mil" and ".gov".

Edited December 28, 2015 by mvsgas

[OnlyforDCS]

Who said that? Please point me to that post. Aerodynamics are not that hard to understand. And no one is talking about guidance, or rocket burn. Look at the drag curve and draw your own conclusions. My only fear is that ed is well aware of this and will do nothing about it.

 

Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk

[mvsgas]

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2618199&postcount=5

[iLOVEwindmills]

Some sources mention it can pull 50g, which is already more than the 18g listed ingame. There's also some info about engine burn times here and there, but I have no idea what would be considered reliable.

[il_corleone]

I can confirm that In all Sites i`ve entered.

 

http://www.deagel.com/Air-to-Air-Missiles/R550-Magic-2_a001109001.aspx

http://www.redstar.gr/Foto_red/Eng/Weapons_HAF/HAF_Magic_2.html

http://encyclopedie-des-armes.com/index.php/aviation/air-air/1419-r550-magic-2

 

It says that Magic is or should be around 15km Range, it is the French Sidewinder.

 

Now in DCS it doesn`t reach more than 5km

 

This is a bug and it makes it like a worse R60, I read that in some patch was tweaked, http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2594391&postcount=10

But stays like the stats of an R60, wich is what it was before that patch

Edited December 28, 2015 by il_corleone

[il_corleone]

Go help us here guys!

Lets make ED aware of the "Bug" or at least take a look

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=156909

[il_corleone]

Some sources mention it can pull 50g, which is already more than the 18g listed ingame. There's also some info about engine burn times here and there, but I have no idea what would be considered reliable.

 

For me, the info realiable I found is that it is better than ingame, the ingame one reaches 5km, sometimes, all sites have the maximum of 15km and some the 20km, so 15km should be good

[mvsgas]

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2619376#post2619376

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=156487

ED will always modify an unwanted behavior if shown evidence. The problem is coming with the evidence.

 

Usually it is track files where the problem happened.

 

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2618241&postcount=11

Edited December 28, 2015 by mvsgas

[il_corleone]

Video here

 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2vZ5ziuGiY&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

 

Track attached

 

 

The missile lose speed very fast and I was launching from 10km, Both planes were fliying at

500km/h at 2.000m

 

Burn time is 1 second and a half

Magic.trk

Edited December 28, 2015 by il_corleone

[il_corleone]

Video here

 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2vZ5ziuGiY&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

 

Track on the Bug post here

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2619410&postcount=4

[PitbullVicious]

Who said that? Please point me to that post. Aerodynamics are not that hard to understand. And no one is talking about guidance, or rocket burn. Look at the drag curve and draw your own conclusions. My only fear is that ed is well aware of this and will do nothing about it.

 

Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk

 

Umm.. I'm a bit confused on what strong conclusions can you draw from the curves. I don't know how reliable Wikipedia's stats are, but according to them the R550 MII is over two times heavier, has 1.7 times the cross sectional area compared to the R60. It's about the same weight as the Aim-9m, and has about 1.5 times the cross section area.

 

At least to me, supersonic drag is not a trivial thing, so could you elaborate on these conclusions a bit? Also, to me it seems that the graph only shows true airspeed and time. Doesn't the effective range depend also highly on the trajectory (which in turn depends for example the lift of the missile)?

 

I'm not saying if the R550 is performing correctly. To be honest, I have no idea. I'm just wondering what kind of things can you read from those curves that imply that something in the physics modelling is wrong?

[sedenion]

Here is what you search for i think:

 

http://www.ffaa.net/weapons/magic/magic_fr.htm

 

Some translation:

Mainly used for air combat in view, it is characterized by an infrared seeker, a very great maneuverability (up to50g) [...]

 

In its operating mode called "integrated", the Magic II takes into account information concerning the target, which are issued by the weapons system, particularly angular position, distance and relative speed. So the acquisition is possible over long distances. The missile is fully autonomous after firing, the driver can thus concentrate fully on the commitment of another goal. [...]

 

In its operating mode called "autonomous", available at any time and regardless of the weapon system, the Magic II research, detects and automatically continues the hook discretely target. [...]

 

Seeker:

The Magic II has a multi-element infrared seeker of advanced technology, cooled by nitrogen injection. [...] The very high sensitivity and the choice of a spectral band allow any target sector detection at distances greater than those of existing similar missions. The seeker, insensitive to landscape noise, has a very low rate of false alarms. [...]

 

Maneuverability:

The original aerodynamic formula double canard rear wing and the free rotation is directly inspired by the Magic I. The closed loop control permits very short reaction times by permanent comparison between orders executed and received. The proportional navigation law is optimized according to actual conditions encountered. These features contribute to saving energy trajectory while minimizing flight time. The missile thus retains the lens approaches a maneuverability enabling it to counter any evasive whatever altitude. The absence of any government on the rear wing largely contributes to the smoothness of the missile and its maneuverability.

 

[...]

 

controls:

Control in flight by 3 groups of 4 fins:

2 front (of which only one which is rearmost is controlled)

1 back to free rotation).

 

Length (Overall): 2.75 m / 9 ft

Diameter (Overall): 0.157 m / 6.18 in

Weight: 89 kg / 196 lbs

Range : 500 m à 15 km / 1 640 ft to 9. 32 miles

Maximum Speed: mach 2.7

Load Factor: > 50 g

 

I don't have reliable source, but some say that the Magic II is in fact better than the Sidewinder...

Edited December 28, 2015 by sedenion

[il_corleone]

Here is what you search for i think:

 

http://www.ffaa.net/weapons/magic/magic_fr.htm

 

Some translation:

 

Thank you! I hope if this is a bug, it gets solved! Thanks!

 

I dont want it to be the best weapon, I want it to be realistic

Edited December 28, 2015 by il_corleone

[il_corleone]

From User Sedenion

 

http://www.ffaa.net/weapons/magic/magic_fr.htm

[BaconSarnie]

Well if the weapons stay as they are then it will be utterly pointless fielding it as anything other than a drone to get shot down.

[il_corleone]

Well if the weapons stay as they are then it will be utterly pointless fielding it as anything other than a drone to get shot down.

 

True, hope it gets solved ASAP,

[Bacab]

From User Sedenion

 

http://www.ffaa.net/weapons/magic/magic_fr.htm

I hate to say that but this text sounds too much like an ad from the missile's maker to be completely trusted. I don't say the figures are false but there is too little context for them to be relevant and you can't base a flight model on them.

[PitbullVicious]

What in general (if there is any standard to begin with) does maximum range in mean in terms of IR seeking missiles? The maximum range for the missile to fly straight, or the maximum lock range for the sensor? To me that translation reads like more of the latter.

[il_corleone]

What in general (if there is any standard to begin with) does maximum range in mean in terms of IR seeking missiles? The maximum range for the missile to fly straight, or the maximum lock range for the sensor? To me that translation reads like more of the latter.

 

In both cases the missile does not reach 4km

Im gonna do a test

[Brisse]

What in general (if there is any standard to begin with) does maximum range in mean in terms of IR seeking missiles? The maximum range for the missile to fly straight, or the maximum lock range for the sensor? To me that translation reads like more of the latter.

 

That's not the point of the thread. The point is that the R.550 Magic 2 looses energy twice as fast as other short range IR missiles for no apparent reason. Of course that affects it's effective range, but that's only a symptom of the real problem.

[sedenion]

I hate to say that but this text sounds too much like an ad from the missile's maker to be completely trusted. I don't say the figures are false but there is too little context for them to be relevant and you can't base a flight model on them.

 

Yes, the text sounds like "This is the better missile of the world, buy it now !" (so, what americans do all the time :p ), but it also explain some interesting things... I fear we have nothing better at this time...

 

At least we know it maneuver at >50g, and its double fins helps for manoeuvrability... i think if they say, it's true...

 

To finish, i think there is no reasons that the Magic II was not as good as the Sidewinder...

Edited December 28, 2015 by sedenion

[iLOVEwindmills]

I think the biggest issue is posed by the short engine burn. I doubt they will make an exception for the Magic and give it reduced drag.