F15C vs. Mirage 2000C BFM

[MaverickET]

The release of the M2000C had me worried, and rightfully so. In the beginning I lost most of my fights against the AI flying the M2000-5. I was then trying to keep between 350-400 knots but the M2000-5 was simply out-turning me both in turn-rate and radius. So here are my observations and what I've learned. Please feel free to dispute any of it, and chip in your knowledge.

 

"The release of RAZBAM’s M2000C, a delta-winged interceptor, presents a new adversary for F-15 which makes it even more lethal for an Eagle Driver to be low and slow. This dogfight is against the M2000-5 which is a modernized variant of the M2000. The aim is to simulate a typical Multiplayer WVR engagement, where both pilots are below 10,000 ft. At this altitude the M2000 can out-turn the F-15 in a horizontal turn-fight. As a result, the F15 must maneuver predominantly in the vertical plane to make use of its higher lift capability and maintain a higher airspeed. The higher airspeed allows the F15 to present a higher Line-of-Sight rate target against the M2000, which forces him to expend more energy in order to get his nose to bear. This coupled with the M2000’s inferior climb and sustained turn rate performance allows the F15 to slowly eat away at the M2000’s energy. Patience is key as it is important to watch out for a decrease in the M2000’s Line-of-Sight rate before bringing the nose to bear. This is an indicator of how hard the bandit is turning w.r.t the pilot’s reference frame at a fixed angle off tail. Therefore, if the F15 pilot is maintaining lag pursuit, a decrease in Line-of-Sight rate signals that the M2000 has bled sufficient energy to where the F15 has the higher turn performance. Attempting to bring the nose to bear without waiting for this moment will result in the F15 exchanging far too much energy for angles, and due to the mismatch in speed/turn radius, will likely cause an overshoot in flight-path."

 

Here is footage of a successful fight against the M2000-5 using this doctrine:

 

[ame]

[/ame] Edited January 3, 2016 by MaverickET

[Hummingbird]

Atm the Mirage suffers from a sustained load factor that is over 2 G's lower than it should be at Mach 0.9, thus the F-15C has an unrealistic advantage in this area.

 

Once fixed a clean Mirage should slightly outperform a clean F-15 in STR, and significantly so in ITR. The story should be the same when both are loaded with 2-4x IR missiles.

 

The F-15 is obviously greatly superior in BVR, thus this is the stage the F-15 driver should seek to end the engagement.

[MaverickET]

Thanks for letting me know! My piloting needs some work that's for sure, even with an advantage I was struggling. You're right, the F-15 should seek to end the fight in BVR; though most of the time I find myself in WVR engagements, on a multiplayer server, with a stray bogey, all while in some unknown valley in Georgia. With some luck that said valley could be in the NTTR map so I'm trying to prepare for that situation. :D

[GGTharos]

Fighting the M2K in WVR won't be a perform for the F-15 after the corrections are made ... But it won't be easy. If you stay in a flat fight you'll just lose, unless it's a medium or higher altitude fight.

[Hummingbird]

In the F-15 you've by no means instantly lost if you find yourself in a WVR figh with a Mirage, you can still utilize the superior climb rate of the F-15 to your advantage, as well as its ability to pick up speed faster for trades in altitude. However the general advantage lies with the Mirage, esp. if there is no altitude to trade with, so it will be a very tough fight for the Eagle driver if the Mirage pilot is on the same level.

[Stuge]

Hmm, gotta put the Mirage through its paces...

 

On a hunch I would say that snapshots are harder with the Mirage because of how the gunsight works compared to F-15. In Mirage you have to align the "snake" on the target's plane :) While in F-15 it's just pipper on target and shoot. Then there's the Eagle's raw engine power, better AoA authority (unless you turn off Mirage Fly By Wire hehe..) and the gun feels more powerful too. Why Mirage guns feel a bit underpowered I don't know, they just don't seem to have same punch as the Russian fighters' 30 mm guns...

[Hummingbird]

Hmm, gotta put the Mirage through its paces...

 

On a hunch I would say that snapshots are harder with the Mirage because of how the gunsight works compared to F-15. In Mirage you have to align the "snake" on the target's plane :) While in F-15 it's just pipper on target and shoot. Then there's the Eagle's raw engine power, better AoA authority (unless you turn off Mirage Fly By Wire hehe..) and the gun feels more powerful too. Why Mirage guns feel a bit underpowered I don't know, they just don't seem to have same punch as the Russian fighters' 30 mm guns...

 

A lot of this will change once RAZBAM's fixes are applied.

[PiedDroit]

On a hunch I would say that snapshots are harder with the Mirage because of how the gunsight works compared to F-15. In Mirage you have to align the "snake" on the target's plane :) While in F-15 it's just pipper on target and shoot.

It's not that bad, the gun cross and snake (even without radar lock) is still useable on short range snapshot. Longer range snapshot aren't a good idea anyway, you don't have enough ammo to play with so you need to make every shot count.

[Fionn]

It's not that bad, the gun cross and snake (even without radar lock) is still useable on short range snapshot. Longer range snapshot aren't a good idea anyway, you don't have enough ammo to play with so you need to make every shot count.

 

This! At the moment the autolock is not implemented so best way I have found to use guns is set up boresight A2A mode and then radar lock (assigned to hotas) the target before going for the shot. I'm really bad without the piper so have to get that lock first. Getting close is a must too, only 250 rounds after all!

[Bushmanni]

It's not that bad, the gun cross and snake (even without radar lock) is still useable on short range snapshot. Longer range snapshot aren't a good idea anyway, you don't have enough ammo to play with so you need to make every shot count.

 

Eagle still has the advantage utilizing snapshot opportunities. In Eagle you can score hits from pretty unbelievable situations if you practice snap shots (like scoring with a snap without a HUD, spray and pray). Although a lot of Eagles snap shot prowess also has to do with its gun that has crazy fire rate and ammo count making spray and pray viable method. Snap shot prowess is one of the reasons why Eagle has more than a decent chance of winning guns only BFM against Flanker in DCS currently. (Other being the superior T/W so you can extend and reset the fight if you fail your snapshots to try again.) While M-2000 is good at pointing it's nose quickly and precisely (Flanker fails at this) it's gunsight and gun combo requires you to get a tracking shot opportunity (getting in the targets six) to have a decent chance of hitting a target. I think it's going to suffer similar fate in gunzo BFM as Flanker ie. winning by the numbers but losing in practice. (Unless real Mirage actually has similar style gunsight as all other of its contemporaries and it is added to DCS.)

[Cik]

if it's anything like the falcon it should have other gunsights.

 

what you seem to be describing is an EEGS gunsight. it probably has a SNAP mode like the falcon does that may not be in yet.

 

i wouldn't bet on gunfunnel being it's only option forever in any case. the thing obviously was designed for this sort of fight, it would be ludicrous to think it's designers didn't recognize the need for snap-optimized gunsight modes.

[pr1malr8ge]

if it's anything like the falcon it should have other gunsights.

 

what you seem to be describing is an EEGS gunsight. it probably has a SNAP mode like the falcon does that may not be in yet.

 

i wouldn't bet on gunfunnel being it's only option forever in any case. the thing obviously was designed for this sort of fight, it would be ludicrous to think it's designers didn't recognize the need for snap-optimized gunsight modes.

 

Id say it's not like the Falcon, its not a US designed fighter. It's french. Maybe the french enjoy the snake :P

[rami80]

Eagle still has the advantage utilizing snapshot opportunities. In Eagle you can score hits from pretty unbelievable situations if you practice snap shots (like scoring with a snap without a HUD, spray and pray). Although a lot of Eagles snap shot prowess also has to do with its gun that has crazy fire rate and ammo count making spray and pray viable method. Snap shot prowess is one of the reasons why Eagle has more than a decent chance of winning guns only BFM against Flanker in DCS currently. (Other being the superior T/W so you can extend and reset the fight if you fail your snapshots to try again.) While M-2000 is good at pointing it's nose quickly and precisely (Flanker fails at this) it's gunsight and gun combo requires you to get a tracking shot opportunity (getting in the targets six) to have a decent chance of hitting a target. I think it's going to suffer similar fate in gunzo BFM as Flanker ie. winning by the numbers but losing in practice. (Unless real Mirage actually has similar style gunsight as all other of its contemporaries and it is added to DCS.)

 

Seriously though, the flanker can't point its nose quickly?!

[Sweep]

The F-16's snap mode requires you to be in plane too...doesn't it?

 

But anyway, the Mirage didn't quite live up to the hype in air to air for me...so back to spamming Mk-20s at things... :D

 

Edit: As for the above...the Flanker can't point its nose precisely...the pitch rate doesn't always drop down when you come off the stick (due to the FCS design). Edit two: and there's some other things with that too, like large control inputs being required at certain points, lots of trimming...the Flanker is very man-intensive when it shouldn't be.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Sweep

[rami80]

The F-16's snap mode requires you to be in plane too...doesn't it?

 

But anyway, the Mirage didn't quite live up to the hype in air to air for me...so back to spamming Mk-20s at things... :D

 

Edit: As for the above...the Flanker can't point its nose precisely...the pitch rate doesn't always drop down when you come off the stick (due to the FCS design). Edit two: and there's some other things with that too, like large control inputs being required at certain points, lots of trimming...the Flanker is very man-intensive when it shouldn't be.

 

In that case I agree. Although I'm sure this is not realistic, dogfighting in the Flanker without disengaging the ACS is PITA.

[Stuge]

Yeah using direct control is a must in Flanker dogfight, otherwise it easily loses to Eagle in one circle geometry! Also important for coming down "over the top" at slow speed!

[ShadowFrost]

In the F-15 you've by no means instantly lost if you find yourself in a WVR figh with a Mirage, you can still utilize the superior climb rate of the F-15 to your advantage, as well as its ability to pick up speed faster for trades in altitude. However the general advantage lies with the Mirage, esp. if there is no altitude to trade with, so it will be a very tough fight for the Eagle driver if the Mirage pilot is on the same level.

 

 

I am not completely certain on this so take with a pinch of salt... I believe the gunsight snake is modeled to how it is in real life and the way it lags behind. It is at times over excessive and "wobbly" but the real life aircraft's HUD footage looks remarkably similar. What changes did they say they were going to make?

[FUgaijin]

IDK if its me or not but the M2K out climbs the 15 and its not even close. It also has better high alt performance than the 15. This is my experience comparing the two in performance.

[mattebubben]

IDK if its me or not but the M2K out climbs the 15 and its not even close. It also has better high alt performance than the 15. This is my experience comparing the two in performance.

 

The M2000s Flightmodel is still being worked on though.

 

And with the latest update (for 2.0) the speed preformance should be very much different.

 

And More inline with the charts we have avalible for its in life performance..

 

But the M2000 is still just in beta and everything is subject to change so that if something that has to be remembers when comparing it so any other aircraft.

Edited January 16, 2016 by mattebubben

[FUgaijin]

Both clean and full fuel 5000ft, full throttle, start at 350kts once hit 500kts 70deg pitch:

 

F-15

47.29 sec stalled out at 100 kts at just over 27000 ft .

 

M2K

74.12 sec stalled at 41 kts at 40308ft.

 

I think something is wrong with one of the modules (f-15), The M2K is the only one besides the A-10C and P-51 that feels right.

 

I always thought the F-15 was remarkably slow in DCS, it really doesn't have that WOW factor when flying it. The L-39 is just as bad if not worse when it comes to the feel of the aircraft's performance.

Edited January 16, 2016 by FUgaijin

[Sweep]

Both clean and full fuel 5000ft, full throttle, start at 350kts once hit 500kts 70deg pitch:

 

F-15

47.29 sec stalled out at 100 kts at just over 27000 ft .

 

M2K

74.12 sec stalled at 41 kts at 40308ft.

 

I think something is wrong with one of the modules (f-15), The M2K is the only one besides the A-10C and P-51 that feels right.

 

I always thought the F-15 was remarkably slow in DCS, it really doesn't have that WOW factor when flying it. The L-39 is just as bad if not worse when it comes to the feel of the aircraft's performance.

 

http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/645693/?sphrase_id=2545073

 

Compare the F-15 to that, might yield better results. :P

 

As for the Mirage, it does FEEL like a darn rocketship, but I don't have charts or anything for it, so I'll just keep enjoying the French space program. :D

[SinusoidDelta]

Both clean and full fuel 5000ft, full throttle, start at 350kts once hit 500kts 70deg pitch:

 

F-15

47.29 sec stalled out at 100 kts at just over 27000 ft .

 

M2K

74.12 sec stalled at 41 kts at 40308ft.

 

I think something is wrong with one of the modules (f-15), The M2K is the only one besides the A-10C and P-51 that feels right.

 

I always thought the F-15 was remarkably slow in DCS, it really doesn't have that WOW factor when flying it. The L-39 is just as bad if not worse when it comes to the feel of the aircraft's performance.

 

That isn't an optimal method for minimum time to climb in the eagle or any jet for that matter. Regardless, the mirage climbs like a bat out of hell in DCS. My gut tells me it's too fast but I can't find any documentation to back that up. Does anyone know where to find that data?

[pr1malr8ge]

Both clean and full fuel 5000ft, full throttle, start at 350kts once hit 500kts 70deg pitch:

 

F-15

47.29 sec stalled out at 100 kts at just over 27000 ft .

 

M2K

74.12 sec stalled at 41 kts at 40308ft.

 

I think something is wrong with one of the modules (f-15), The M2K is the only one besides the A-10C and P-51 that feels right.

 

I always thought the F-15 was remarkably slow in DCS, it really doesn't have that WOW factor when flying it. The L-39 is just as bad if not worse when it comes to the feel of the aircraft's performance.

 

you cannot compare two aircraft's climb profile like that.. you have to match gross weight to do a comparison.

 

It's the same thing as those RU fly boys who whine that the eagle is out turning their bloated Su27..

 

Run the same test with the eagle at the same gross weight as the m2k and see how it does..

[AussieGhost789]

Apparently the Mirage's drag doesn't scale with speed, which would explain its extreme performance in this kind of situation.

 

Edit: Not sure if GG misinterpreted this, so I'll clear it up. This is in game. Obviously it's supposed to scale with speed, and the devs have said they are making changes with regards to drag.

Edited January 17, 2016 by AussieGhost789

[SinusoidDelta]

That's kind of a critical variable to do without...

 

Where did you read that?