How to work out or measure distance?

[bunraku]

Hi

 

If ATC give you a distance to travel, how do work that out or measure the distance travelled? So how do you know you've travelled the correct distance?

 

Thanks

Edited January 7, 2016 by bunraku

[Livers]

It may not be the easiest, but with the TAD as SOI, TMS-right and drop a mark point. Or on the UFC, hit MK. Then also on the UFC, FUNC-MARK, FUNC-STEER and watch the DIS counter on the CDU. Steer to the course ATC gives you, go on autopilot and fiddle with the QFE. It will get you close.

[Durnox]

Or use a calculator and a clock:

 

D / (GS [knots] * 1.15) = t [h]

 

D: Distance, GS: Groundspeed

[baltic_dragon]

Or just make an overhead mark point, set is as steer point and fly away for it required distance.

[Sierra99]

Or just make an overhead mark point, set is as steer point and fly away for it required distance.

 

I think we need more context to answer this question...in 22 years of flying I can't say I ever remember being told to "fly X number of miles then do something". It's not UN common to be told "You are X miles from X" Or "Extend your downwind leg X miles before turning final" but never "Go that away X miles and call me"

 

I HAVE heard VFR Aircraft instructed to "Continue on course XXX for X minutes then contact Center on X frequency" when passing VFR traffic from one center to another where radio coverage is poor.

 

I have also listened to an F-16 FAC direct F-16s onto a target literally but having the, follow a road, to a church, then turn left and go till they see a barn...then bomb that barn. But that's another story.:music_whistling:

[Sierra99]

Ooooooooooor

 

Use this...

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=133980

 

Sierra

[NeilWillis]

I take it you don't use the ATC radio facility then Sierra99?

 

Call inbound and you always get bearing/distance instructions for the initial point to land. A simple approach to establishing the right point is to simply dial in the runway heading, and the airfield waypoint, and when the course needle and waypoint heading needle align on the HSI make your turn onto finals.

Edited January 7, 2016 by NeilWillis

[baltic_dragon]

I take it you don't use the ATC radio facility then Sierra99?

 

Call inbound and you always get bearing/distance instructions for the initial point to land. A simple approach to establishing the right point is to simply dial in the runway heading, and the airfield waypoint, and when the course needle and waypoint heading needle align on the HSI make your turn onto finals.

 

Yeah, exactly. Nabyte this will be changed with The ATC overhaul, but in SP this is the instruction given to player by the tower.

 

I have also listened to an F-16 FAC direct F-16s onto a target literally but having the, follow a road, to a church, then turn left and go till they see a barn...then bomb that barn. But that's another story.:music_whistling:

 

LOL :) now imagine ATC doing that for the A-10s :))

[bunraku]

Thanks guys. Interesting.

[Toertchen]

I'm not so familiar with the navigation systems in the A10, but i think you only have ILS and TACAN? Or can you recieve signals from VORs, NDBs?

 

Anyway, normally you can do the following things:

 

Or use a calculator and a clock:

D / (GS [knots] * 1.15) = t [h]

D: Distance, GS: Groundspeed

 

or

 

you use - didn't found an english article about that, the german call it "Kreuzpeilung" or "Rückwärtseinschneiden" - with 2 or 3 VORs/NDBs

 

For that you need at least a map, ruler, compass and a pencil.

 

 

 

First you have to determine your own position. For this you use in the image below two NDBs. Your own position is located in the intersection of the two lines (354° and 55°).

Now you transfer your flight direction and distance in the map (Note here the map scale). Then you determine the number of degrees (for example: 300° and 60°), which you will measure at the point you reach your distance.

 

 

 

 

If you are using 3 NDBs, then is your own position of the center of the resulting surface.

[GurbY]

I'm not so familiar with the navigation systems in the A10, but i think you only have ILS and TACAN? Or can you recieve signals from VORs, NDBs?

 

Anyway, normally you can do the following things:

 

 

 

or

 

you use - didn't found an english article about that, the german call it "Kreuzpeilung" or "Rückwärtseinschneiden" - with 2 or 3 VORs/NDBs

 

For that you need at least a map, ruler, compass and a pencil.

 

 

 

First you have to determine your own position. For this you use in the image below two NDBs. Your own position is located in the intersection of the two lines (354° and 55°).

Now you transfer your flight direction and distance in the map (Note here the map scale). Then you determine the number of degrees (for example: 300° and 60°), which you will measure at the point you reach your distance.

 

 

 

 

If you are using 3 NDBs, then is your own position of the center of the resulting surface.

It certainly is a proven method, but I'm convinced that when you finish your calculation, the 10nm have been flown over a few times...

[Toertchen]

It certainly is a proven method, but I'm convinced that when you finish your calculation, the 10nm have been flown over a few times...

 

 

probably :megalol:

 

10nm is a bad example or you slow down to a safe non-stall-speed or you use the active-pause option :smartass:

 

Anyway, whats the english name for it? Cross Bearing?

[Blackeye]

It may not be the easiest, but with the TAD as SOI, TMS-right and drop a mark point. Or on the UFC, hit MK. Then also on the UFC, FUNC-MARK, FUNC-STEER and watch the DIS counter on the CDU. Steer to the course ATC gives you, go on autopilot and fiddle with the QFE. It will get you close.

 

On the TAD you can also hook your own aircraft (TMS up on ownship) and select HOOK-CURS mode (OSB18 ). Then drag the cursor until the displayed range & bearing match the desired values and drop a mark point (TMS right).

Now you've got a mark point at the requested location and can find (and steer to)it whenever you need.

 

It's fairly quick and doesn't require you to do math or memorize bearing and distance - still need to remember the letter of the mark point though ;p

 

FWIIW: Those hooking modes are also quite handy when resolving bullseye calls on the map (BULL-CURS)

Edited January 7, 2016 by Blackeye

[Sierra99]

I take it you don't use the ATC radio facility then Sierra99?

 

Call inbound and you always get bearing/distance instructions for the initial point to land. A simple approach to establishing the right point is to simply dial in the runway heading, and the airfield waypoint, and when the course needle and waypoint heading needle align on the HSI make your turn onto finals.

 

Are you taking in game or real life? Yes in the game if you call ATC you get a bearing/distance call to initial. Use it all the time. But let's not forget the ATC in the game is tremendously simplified. Real life is way different. If you are under ATC control...they are directive. (Note I said ATC control...VFR and ATC monitoring are different)

 

They will either tell to to hold at a specific point that is identified via coordinates or position from a navaid. For example "Hold at BIGGS" which is a hold point on an arrival means hold at that point following standard procedures. They can also say "Hold on the LSV 270/045 DME fix" they can tell you to do something where you are (Turn left to course xxx) or give you a specific place to go ( turn right heading xxx to intercept ILS, cleared ILS approach, rwy xx ) they will also say things like "the Rwy is at your 11 o'clock for 10 miles" but with few exceptions unless you are VFR with no instruments...they are pretty directive

 

However, I don't think that is the kind of direction from ATC BD is talking about. if I understood his question correctly. I think he was asking if they would say "turn right and fly 25 miles and call me"

 

BD I have a buddy from work who is a retired ATC controller. Let me know what you are trying to accomplish either here or via gmail and I'll get you an answer.

 

Sierra

[bunraku]

My thoughts were just that ATC say go that direction for that number of miles. By the time you've taken your notes or punched into tad you have flown several hundred yards or even a couple of nm. So unless you react in seconds to the instruction(and I'm not saying you couldn't) then aren't the instructions erroneous even slightly? Your turn may be a couple of degrees more or less now and the distance longer or shorter. However I am basing this that something is going to happen navigation/landing wise when you hit the original coordinate given and that area might be tiny or huge for that action to trigger. If the trigger area is huge then it's irrelevant. Thanks again

[ttaylor0024]

I'm not so familiar with the navigation systems in the A10, but i think you only have ILS and TACAN? Or can you recieve signals from VORs, NDBs?

 

Anyway, normally you can do the following things:

 

 

 

or

 

you use - didn't found an english article about that, the german call it "Kreuzpeilung" or "Rückwärtseinschneiden" - with 2 or 3 VORs/NDBs

 

For that you need at least a map, ruler, compass and a pencil.

 

 

 

First you have to determine your own position. For this you use in the image below two NDBs. Your own position is located in the intersection of the two lines (354° and 55°).

Now you transfer your flight direction and distance in the map (Note here the map scale). Then you determine the number of degrees (for example: 300° and 60°), which you will measure at the point you reach your distance.

 

 

 

 

If you are using 3 NDBs, then is your own position of the center of the resulting surface.

 

You don't even need to get that complex in aircraft like the A-10. You can get DME off a TACAN, in which case your radial is also displayed, thus you can mark your position in seconds. After that, mark out the course and distance, get that radial/distance off the TACAN then you know when you're at the point. The method you described is triangulation, and is normally done only if you don't have DME. It's a commonly taught topic in private pilot training.

 

Rule of thumb conversion is just to take your speed to the nearest number divisible by 60, or even 6 if you drop the last 0. Each multiple is 1 mile a minute, fly for that number of minutes. To be accurate you need to be using TAS, or better yet, GS.

 

 

My thoughts were just that ATC say go that direction for that number of miles. By the time you've taken your notes or punched into tad you have flown several hundred yards or even a couple of nm. So unless you react in seconds to the instruction(and I'm not saying you couldn't) then aren't the instructions erroneous even slightly? Your turn may be a couple of degrees more or less now and the distance longer or shorter. However I am basing this that something is going to happen navigation/landing wise when you hit the original coordinate given and that area might be tiny or huge for that action to trigger. If the trigger area is huge then it's irrelevant. Thanks again

 

IRL, as described by sierra 99, they will tell you to fly to a fix, or put you on vectors. For example, flying back at my home airport and approaching from the east for the ILS 35, ATC would tell me to turn left 200 vectors ILS 35, descend and maintain 3200'. After complying and flying that direction for awhile, they would then say, "Turn right heading 320 until established (on the localizer), cleared ILS 35. For VFR flying, you'd call up a typical airport at 10 miles saying you're inbound. They'd respond with, *callsign* enter right downwind runway 35, report the downwind, or something to that nature. How it's portrayed in DCS in incorrect, but seeing as ATC is bugged half the time anyway the entire system will have to be looked at.

Edited January 7, 2016 by ttaylor0024

[rob10]

My thoughts were just that ATC say go that direction for that number of miles. By the time you've taken your notes or punched into tad you have flown several hundred yards or even a couple of nm. So unless you react in seconds to the instruction(and I'm not saying you couldn't) then aren't the instructions erroneous even slightly? Your turn may be a couple of degrees more or less now and the distance longer or shorter. However I am basing this that something is going to happen navigation/landing wise when you hit the original coordinate given and that area might be tiny or huge for that action to trigger. If the trigger area is huge then it's irrelevant. Thanks again

 

Most of the time (esp. with ATC) you know that they are going to give you this type of instruction. The easy way to deal with it is plan ahead and simply click the "MK" button on the UFC when ATC finally issues the command. That drops a markpoint at your current location that you can then use at your leisure in the TAD to compute where you need to end up at. Below is what I do:

 

 

Set MFCD as CDU repeater

Press MK on UFC to save current position when ATC give you bearing/distance -- MARK POINT LETTER/INFO will show up on CDU

UFC FUNC then UFC 4 (OSET)

Enter MARK Letter for current position on scratchpad (or FUNC UFC 8 to set MARK mode and scroll)

OSB 19 (INIT POINT)

Enter HDG/DISTANCE from ATC on scratchpad (HHHDDD.D)

OSB 8 (MH/DIST) - enters magnetic heading/distance

OSB 9 - Copies to new Mission Waypoint (can enter name in scratchpad or it will use next available number)

Set AAP STEER PT rotary to MISSION (or UFC FUNC 0 (STEER) )

Select IAF waypoint created as Steerpoint

[Mike5560]

Or you can Nav to the airfield like the mig-21 uses RSBN.... you can select CDU mode to nav, then divert, pick your destination airfield, and set your HSI heading to correspond with the airfield.

[Puma]

Set MFCD as CDU repeater

Press MK on UFC to save current position when ATC give you bearing/distance -- MARK POINT LETTER/INFO will show up on CDU

UFC FUNC then UFC 4 (OSET)

Enter MARK Letter for current position on scratchpad (or FUNC UFC 8 to set MARK mode and scroll)

OSB 19 (INIT POINT)

Enter HDG/DISTANCE from ATC on scratchpad (HHHDDD.D)

OSB 8 (MH/DIST) - enters magnetic heading/distance

OSB 9 - Copies to new Mission Waypoint (can enter name in scratchpad or it will use next available number)

Set AAP STEER PT rotary to MISSION (or UFC FUNC 0 (STEER) )

Select IAF waypoint created as Steerpoint

 

This is the ideal procedure IMO if you need absolute precision. Plan B is improved SA and mark II eyeballs. Easy to say, hard to do!