LGB handling - limitations

[VTJS17_Fire]

Hi,

 

as I read the latest fixes from CptSmiley, I've been looking forward - again. :)

 

Buddy lasing functional (and ability for M-2000C to use JTAC)

 

For me, it's the one and only interessting air-to-ground weapon on the Mirage, because it's very accurate compared to the other "dumb" bombs.

 

I've some questions for handling laser guided bombs with the M-2000C, such as die GBU-12. I know the LGBs and it's handling very well from the A-10C, but the advantages with the M-2000C are far more interessting: speed and altitude.

 

But: Are there limitations in these parameters or can I just climb up to FL 400, accelerate to Mach 1.2 and drop these little bastards with great range?

 

And: Do I have to dive or does the seeker find the laser reflection in high altitude?

 

 

regards,

Fire

[TomCatMucDe]

If I remember well, Azrayen mentioned once that you are not supposed to go supersonic with those bombs. I am not sure if the limitation or eventually the damage is modeled. I have gone supersonic with them and nothing happened.

[QuiGon]

And: Do I have to dive or does the seeker find the laser reflection in high altitude?

 

 

regards,

Fire

 

You don't throw them on the laser, you throw them on a CCRP-target the same way you drop dumb bombs in CCRP. The bomb will look for a laser during it's fall, so you don't have to dive.

It's the same in the A-10C: If you use drop a LGB, then you (should) wait until 10-20 seconds before impact before you turn on the laser. If you drop from high altitude the bomb will already be in the air at that point.

[gospadin]

Yup. They drop just like any other CCRP/CCIP release, in that you aim them roughly for the target. The laser is there to correct any inaccuracies, or handle cases where the target is moving.

[jojo]

Using CCRP, at some point you have to dive to designate target through the HUD.

You don't release from high altitude on INS wpt.

 

The INS wpt help you to find the target during the designation process by displaying " + " on the INS position, if range < 10Nm.

 

And even with perfect INS (no drift) you can have up to 15m error in latitude.

[gospadin]

Using CCRP, at some point you have to dive to designate target through the HUD.

You don't release from high altitude on INS wpt.

 

The INS wpt help you to find the target during the designation process by displaying " + " on the INS position, if range < 10Nm.

 

And even with perfect INS (no drift) you can have up to 15m error in latitude.

 

True, but an LGB can easily compensate for that much error if you drop it from a few thousand feet up.

[ckelly14]

I have used LBG in the A-10C. How exactly to I laser designate with a "buddy"? Anyone want to point me in the right direction?

[TomCatMucDe]

I have used LBG in the A-10C. How exactly to I laser designate with a "buddy"? Anyone want to point me in the right direction?

 

there is not much to do, just lock the target on TGP while your laser is on. Make sure you have L or B letter in the TGP. Really just as if you want to bomb yourself. Leave the default laser code.

[jojo]

True, but an LGB can easily compensate for that much error if you drop it from a few thousand feet up.

 

Yes, but the system is not designed to release LGB. This capacity came later, and as work around you release it like Mk-82.

 

In the end, yes you can designate wherever you like.

 

The point was: INS wpt is not mandatory to release AG weapons, it's an help. You can designate whatever you want.

 

Here is a CCRP release by Mirage F1 (CT or CR).

This is almost the same, but the little square replace the " + " as INS wpt.

http://dai.ly/x9f38y?start=453

[gospadin]

I have used LBG in the A-10C. How exactly to I laser designate with a "buddy"? Anyone want to point me in the right direction?

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=158442

[TomCatMucDe]

from high altitude it would be pretty hard to designate something as you would see everything tiny on the ground. i am not sure if it is gonna be sufficient for accurate bombing. we will find out quite soon

[mig29movt]

In real live I'd imagine it to be really hard for a control system to overcome wind and gravity forces if a bomb is released within extreme parameters.

To me it seems clear that with higher altitude and speed the probable error increases, even though the controls try to guide it towards the laser spot.

 

But I doubt that something like this is already modeled.

 

I think it behaves like the minimum range of a missile, where it simply can't guide itself onto the target in such a short time, maybe the bombs to have a maximum travel time too,

which may be limited by the battery/power system inside it.

[gospadin]

from high altitude it would be pretty hard to designate something as you would see everything tiny on the ground. i am not sure if it is gonna be sufficient for accurate bombing. we will find out quite soon

 

Huh? This is why every aircraft-mounted TGP has a zoom function as well as inertial and gyroscopic stability augmentation, for maintaining lock at a point on the ground or on a moving target at very large ranges.

[gospadin]

In real live I'd imagine it to be really hard for a control system to overcome wind and gravity forces if a bomb is released within extreme parameters.

To me it seems clear that with higher altitude and speed the probable error increases, even though the controls try to guide it towards the laser spot.

 

But I doubt that something like this is already modeled.

 

I think it behaves like the minimum range of a missile, where it simply can't guide itself onto the target in such a short time, maybe the bombs to have a maximum travel time too,

which may be limited by the battery/power system inside it.

 

All these factors are considered by a modern targeting computer. In the A-10C, for example, for best accuracy you have to enter the weather (wind direction and speed) etc. at your target waypoint area so it can model more accurately how the bomb will fall.

 

Yes, if you drop on the extreme edges of capability your chances of a miss go up (a lot) but just like the "inner" DLZ on a missile, an LGB has a reasonably wide band of release parameters if you have sufficient altitude.

[TomCatMucDe]

Huh? This is why every aircraft-mounted TGP has a zoom function as well as inertial and gyroscopic stability augmentation, for maintaining lock at a point on the ground or on a moving target at very large ranges.

 

I am not talking about finding the target with the A10 on TGP. I meant it is probably hard to know where to lock the target in the Mirage when you are very high and not using INS to give you a clue.

[gospadin]

I am not talking about finding the target with the A10 on TGP. I meant it is probably hard to know where to lock the target in the Mirage when you are very high and not using INS to give you a clue.

 

True. If you didn't have waypoints already established, and are required to stay at high altitude, you'd be limited to airfield-sized targets or other large features easily identified from the air. With a JTAC, you could just drop within a few hundred meters, and let the laser steer it in correctly. The maneuverability of the Paveway fins is quite good, though Paveway I/II suffers from a lot of drag if it has to correct a lot.

[TomCatMucDe]

We will judge when we see it in action. It could end up as a no to little advantage to use buddy lazing with Mirage if you can drop bomb from high

[Pikey]

I tested chucking LGB's without making effort in several different profiles with the A-10C.

 

The LGB is not tolerant of being chucked about, you really need to stick to a sebnsible release.

[ckelly14]

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=158442

 

Let me rephrase: I know how to use LGB in the A-10, how do I employ them in the Mirage? Drop via CCRP and make sure there is a TGP- equipped aircraft in my flight or in the area? How would I set up a practice mission for this, or is it only something that I can do in multiplayer?

[jojo]

Let me rephrase: I know how to use LGB in the A-10, how do I employ them in the Mirage? Drop via CCRP and make sure there is a TGP- equipped aircraft in my flight or in the area? How would I set up a practice mission for this, or is it only something that I can do in multiplayer?

 

First test made by CaptSmiley was with AI JTAC on ground lasing target.

 

You can't do it yet, but once we get INS input, enter target coordinates into PCN, and perform CCRP release on target.

Edited January 13, 2016 by jojo

[ckelly14]

Got it. Thanks.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Deezle]

How I imagine this working in practice is for the Hog driver to find a target, they'll give you the coordinates and you'll enter them in the INS. You'll then designate the target on the coordinates given and pickle. I can't wait for more INS functionality, my A-10 CDU panel is sitting here just waiting to be used :D

[TomCatMucDe]

Im afraid that people are gonna try it a couple of times and then leave it there. The way CCRP is designed make it hard to be used.

Picking the target up at high altitude in the dive before 10NM wont be accurate.

It is fun to try but it wont be the way people will drop LGBs on the long run... I guess...

[PiedDroit]

Im afraid that people are gonna try it a couple of times and then leave it there. The way CCRP is designed make it hard to be used.

Picking the target up at high altitude in the dive before 10NM wont be accurate.

It is fun to try but it wont be the way people will drop LGBs on the long run... I guess...

The way I think I'll use them is from medium altitude, just like you would do with an A-10C.

The different is the Mirage is much faster, allowing to engage a target with a longer reach than with an A-10C (go fast, drop and turn away).

 

So it will be useful to engage *some* targets the A-10C can't reach, but not all... Again this is not a do-it-all wonder-SEAD aircraft.

[QuiGon]

Im afraid that people are gonna try it a couple of times and then leave it there. The way CCRP is designed make it hard to be used.

Picking the target up at high altitude in the dive before 10NM wont be accurate.

It is fun to try but it wont be the way people will drop LGBs on the long run... I guess...

 

This procedure is indeed not really useful. That's why I think that the primary method to drop LGBs with the M2000 will be to utilize the INS to get a target mark, so you don't have to dive to pick them up.

 

Like Deezle said:

How I imagine this working in practice is for the Hog driver to find a target, they'll give you the coordinates and you'll enter them in the INS. You'll then designate the target on the coordinates given and pickle. I can't wait for more INS functionality, my A-10 CDU panel is sitting here just waiting to be used :D