Joystick axis jitter filter

[lanmancz]

Hello,

I'd like to please suggest a new slider added to the AXIS TUNE menu. That slider would be an axis jitter filter.

 

As most people probably I don't have a top quality stick (X52 Pro) and I'm experiencing a small jitter in most axes which unfortunately makes them pretty much unusable for many functions. "Get a better stick", I know, still if there was a simple filter/smoothing function of the axis input in game it would open up a possibility to use those.

Edited January 16, 2016 by lanmancz

[Ala12Rv-watermanpc]

I though the X52 pro was a high end joy :huh:...Im about get one. I know its not a warhog but it should be one of the best HOTAS out there right??

 

I agree with your desire btw :thumbup:

[lanmancz]

I though the X52 pro was a high end joy :huh:

 

The stick is fine for the most part but these additional axes on the throttle, as well as the throttle itself actually, do start to jitter after some time.

Edited January 16, 2016 by lanmancz

[Ala12Rv-watermanpc]

Damn!!, I know there is no such a thing as the perfect joy right now (even the warhog is not that good to me due to the incredible high price ) and I have seen some problems here and there but I didnt expect nor read anything about some axis becoming jittery...I even decided to go for the x52 pro over the x55 due to the incredible amount of problems of the x55 :(:doh:

[Kobradelta1000]

Hello,

I'd like to please suggest a new slider added to the AXIS TUNE menu. That slider would be an axis jitter filter.

 

As most people probably I don't have a top quality stick (X52 Pro) and I'm experiencing a small jitter in most axes which unfortunately makes them pretty much unusable for many functions. "Get a better stick", I know, still if there was a simple filter/smoothing function of the axis input in game it would open up a possibility to use those.

 

+1

[Ala12Rv-watermanpc]

The stick is fine for the most part but these additional axes on the throttle, as well as the throttle itself actually, do start to jitter after some time.

 

Sorry mate but I have to ask if you received my PM???...for some reason my send folder remains empty even when I have sent many PM to people...is a common problem or what??

Edited January 17, 2016 by watermanpc

[Valinor]

Isn't that what deadzone and curvature settings are for?

[lanmancz]

Isn't that what deadzone and curvature settings are for?

 

No, it's a different thing. What I'm talking about is essentially a noise filter on the axis input.

 

You can see what I mean by mapping an axis as a zoom function for instance. Unless you have a new stick or you're lucky you will notice, like me, that the view keeps jumping in and out slightly. That's the little noise coming from the axis. It's not usually a problem on throttle for example but mapped as zoom it does cause an issue, at least in my case. What I'm suggesting is if it would be possible to add some smoothing function that would get rid of this noise, smooth out the peaks by taking an average value for instance. The slider could then adjust the sampling time, 0 would be instant (no filtering, no averages), 100 would be 100ms or 100 refresh cycles average, you get the idea. Hopefully that would do the trick.

Edited January 17, 2016 by lanmancz

[sobek]

The problem with that is it can be quite hard for a layman to tune a noise filter, and the noise can be really quite different. This topic is a can of worms. In all honesty, this should be the hardware suppliers responsibility.

[lanmancz]

The problem with that is it can be quite hard for a layman to tune a noise filter, and the noise can be really quite different. This topic is a can of worms.

Really ? I wouldn't think it has to be more complicated than averaging last X (selected by the slider) incoming values. Or a simple acceleration filter where the slider would indicate how many samples it takes to respond to value change. At least in my case, using DIView, I can see that the noise is about ±0.5% of the selected position. Not a huge problem in general but not good for certain functions like the mentioned zoom, or target wingspan for instance.

 

In all honesty, this should be the hardware suppliers responsibility.

Well, that's probably true but sadly I have yet to see a stick driver with such function built-in.

Edited January 18, 2016 by lanmancz

[Diplocaulus]

I've starting noticing some jitter in my 18-month-old Saitek X52 Pro throttle. Rather get inside the hardware and clean pots, etc., I'm wishing there was a mod/plugin/ap that could run interference between the hardware and software to smooth things out, but as I and others have found there is apparently none.

 

The jitter doesn't affect game performance, but with the P-51D especially I don't like seeing a throttle wobbling in the cockpit.

[scotchegg]

Yeah, I had the same thing with my X52 when I tried mapping cockpit zoom to a slider on the throttle.

 

If anyone comes up with a solution I'd love to hear it...

[Rangi]

If you google logitech g940 hysteresis bug, you will find out why a software solution can cause more problems than it solves. I would try and open it up and clean or replace the pots.

[Rabb]

Well, that's probably true but sadly I have yet to see a stick driver with such function built-in.

 

Some joysticks have that functionality built in.

 

I asked for the same thing some time ago:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=143510

 

Potentiometer spiking (jittering, noise) is far more pronounced on my throttle (X52 Pro) and some of my joysticks. Imagine your entire view zooming in/out several times per second for 5 %. Or more. Generally, even some brand new, brand name joysticks/HOTAS configurations have potentiometers of dramatically lower quality than 10 years ago.

 

Even brand new, out of the box, they have serious issues, like seen here:

https://youtu.be/OkliSUIqgAY

 

Having many years of experience with simulators (I own a bunch ;) ), joysticks, and amateur electronics/joystick repairs, I can only say: Appalling.

 

On the plus side for asking for that functionality, I would just add that a legendary Il-2 Sturmovik has that functionality built in since original release (2001) or at least since Il-2 FB (2003). I've been playing Il-2 since 2001 and axis filtering there works like a charm, with no tax on PC performance, control and with just a minor lag on maximum filtering setting.

 

I've been using third party filtering software for the last year, but it doesn't work on my current operating system. So, I would really like ED to implement that feature as standard.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Rabb

[Rabb]

For illustration how it looks like in Il-2 Sturmovik 1946:

 

 

Each axis is set, configured and filtered independently.

 

I must repeat, it works just great. :smilewink:

Edited October 11, 2016 by Rabb

[Rabb]

For me, and a vast majority of players who don't have high-end or brand-new gear, this is really a must. For that sole reason, you may consider this a bump.

[zaelu]

+1 for this suggestion.

[Worrazen]

Yes this is exactly what I was thinking about here just today https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=177651

 

It could be some kind of smart advanced calculation, but it's doable very quickly and totally simple, just to disregard input for most of the time and only register it every X miliseconds.

 

 

 

For AutoHotkey, this is all it takes to remove the double middle click that caused me to open 2-3 browser tabs at once.

 

MButton::   
  If (A_TimeSincePriorHotkey < 250)
     Return
  Send {MButton}
Return

 

I have it set to 250 miliseconds, if there's a middle mouse click that happens in less than 250 milliseconds after an earlier middle mouse click, it will block it and OS won't register it.

[Buzzles]

The alternative name of the above is "debounce logic", which is the term given to it via the wider electronics sector.

 

Same difference though, prevents "jitter" or accidental inputs caused by non-precise input hardware.

 

Would be nice to have for DCS as I get terrible jitter on an axis on my throttle.

[Worrazen]

I've tried to do something with AutoHotkey, Joy Axis can't be used as hotkeys so the functionality is much less, I tried to do the same as I did with my mouse, won't even run the script.

[Worrazen]

The alternative name of the above is "debounce logic", which is the term given to it via the wider electronics sector.

 

Same difference though, prevents "jitter" or accidental inputs caused by non-precise input hardware.

 

Would be nice to have for DCS as I get terrible jitter on an axis on my throttle.

 

 

That may or may not be a different thing .. imo:

 

 

1. When you want to set a beacon interval, to register input every X miliseconds, that should be called "Axis Detection Interval" - This is the most simple and crude way. It barely requires a few lines of code.

 

2. The "Axis Noise Filter" is more appropirate when trying to set a timeout when the repeat block activates ... since there is still no logic behind it, it filters out the repeats. This one is also simple, would require a bit more code, but only a few more lines or words.

 

3. "Axis Debounce Logic" would be appropriate for some more complicated way of removing jitter, some advanced script which would be several hundred or thousand lines of code, that would have some ability recognize the patterns of jerky movements caused by sensor jitter. This option if done properly wouldn't need a configurable setting other than an off/on switch.

 

 

Also keep in mind, HW industry is in Asia, they don't even get their english right in marketing.

 

Yeah hehe, I'm picky when it comes to semantics. I don't like many monikers the marketing for tech industry puts out, they largely don't mean anything and are gimmicks.

 

EDIT: The first two seem they're the same, but very similar indeed, however the second is more advanced, because the first one has no way of knowing when the last input happened, and a genuine input may happen just a microsecond after it shuts down detection for X miliseconds, so the second option would perform more reliable in cases where you would be running at max power for some time and pulling back to medium, the first option would have less chance of being in sync with your genuine input, the higher the interval the less chance, 9 times out of 10 it would perform slower than the second option. Then you have to count in the randomness of you pulling down the stick, it can be calculated to astronomic proportions but in the end the second option would overall win. So this is a certain cases scenario, but since the second option is barely harder to program, it probably outweights and even tho it may practically not make that big of a difference, it's still a preferred option.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Worrazen

[Rabb]

Please, ED, make axis filters.

 

Vast majority of players don't have Warthog, VKB, or whatever high-end joysticks. And most of those joysticks or throttles have potentiometers somewhere that will develop jitter/spiking. And I've even seen some brand new joysticks that have that problem out of the box.

[DasPenguin]

Hell, I have a TM Warthog that's less than a month old and the grey faux friction slider next to the apu start switch does this - and I use it for my zoom, so the noise makes it bounce a lot. Even high end stuff suffers from noise. Other sims have noise filters, and I highly recommend ED add it to DCS. It's merely a measurement in milliseconds where repeat inputs are ignored.

[Johnny_Rico]

+1 to this great idea

[cichlidfan]

As long as it remains an option and can be completely disabled, I don't care.