Why aren't there today any real good joysticks?

[RFC Rudel]

I have write a lot about this………..

 

Imagine if a x55 go for 700US…….yes, after taxes in some countries that’s what you pay….a Immoral amount of cash for a plastic toy…….

 

But the problem is more complex, Saitek was great, the SAITEK x52 give me years of service, but the madcatz is crap, even Logitech is not the same.

 

Quality is hard to find even if you have the cash, put in the mix that sims a niche market and you buy what you get if you get it.

 

 

Gaming

 

I will be heartbroken to use a quality device to my arcade games…….yes I like to play some arcade sims too.

Today many of the readers here are not in the 15s………already have to find time to play and we want to play not to troubleshoot crap devices.

 

Biometrics:

 

Lests face it, we don't like to remove hands from devices to turn a switch....

 

The more reachable and NATURAL to use the better, sometimes you have hats or buttons that fell so unnatural that you don't even configure.

Need to stretch your finger and do the Kennedy bullet dance to reach it.

 

 

The x52 regulation for your hand, it was very handy and was replaced in the x-65 and abandoned in the x55

 

The x-65 use plastic add on to elevate your hand but was crap

 

I think that add ons like the pistol grips options in handguns could be used and even used on the stick to increase its diameter.

 

I hate the lack of proper support for the arm on all flight devices, car games have lot better attachments on their devices. we have 4 holes to screw if we are lucky.

 

Logitech 3d, very small but it just work always.

 

Controls:

 

x55 mode switch on the throttle? it was much better place on the x52.

 

the mouse on the x52 throttle, and the slide, very easy to use.

 

The front controls on the x65 throttle handle, now deduced to crap in x55.

 

Love the Panels in front of the x-65 throttle, I Really get surprised on how natural I fell using them.

 

8 Way Hats: HATE THEM, you can use more than 4 way hat whit precision’s? and way so big? and close to each other.. ..

 

 

Today I can say

 

The best throttle experience (how it fell switches positions) the x-65

 

best joy experience, x52

 

Best usability, Logitech 3d (it works, don’t have many controls so you can complain where are the missing ones)

 

 

I think that a modular and scalable system whit spare parts and upgrades are the answer PERIOD, and that’s why I help VKB on all I can, especially in the critics area (they love to hate me J )

 

And Fidelity.......

 

You want a replica or more multi-function device? modular will fix that.

 

 

And like someone post

 

Crap devices still sell well........hope I can change that here

 

 

 

PD: I am not part of VKB, I am a future reseller (if VKB decide to drop the soft lunches :)) and gamer and simmer, I really want build solutions to simmers not problems, I don't even sell hardware, I am a IT consultant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fidelity

Edited February 5, 2016 by RFC Rudel

[remon]

that's terrible, so it's literally all metal except where it matters the most.

 

I think you're just trying to bash the Warthog?

[RFC Rudel]

my glock have lots of plastic and work.....

[some1]

Well, cougar was all metal inside the stick. Didn't help.

[531-Ghost]

Most of what you are looking for...

 

All,

 

With this article i would like to express a dissatisfaction regarding the todays available joysticks on the market.

 

Since my youth I am a flight simulation enthousiast. Now being 46, i find someting really disturbing: there simply aren't any good joysticks anymore on the market, or, they are too expensive while still missing key functions...

 

The most important factor of a good joystick is:

- Be precise in its movements and does not jitter

- Allow to move the handle without requiring a lot of force from the wrist or arm.

- Have no gradations of force to be applied to a joystick.

For example, if you need to apply more force to move the joystick out of the center,

it is very disturbing.

- Have all the required buttons (see below) and hats.

- Have a rudder function.

- Simple to setup (plug and play). Not everyone has a dedicated flight lab...

 

Look at my comments below, there is today simply not even one joystick on the market that has these functions ...

 

1. Very important: A working force feedback function. This is very important for flying helicopters. When you trim the helicopter rotors, the stick should take the position of the last trimmed position. Also, for other airplanes, the force feedback can provide additional realism to the game in terms of shaking and resistance... And, very important, the joystick force feedback mechanism should be quiet. The best force feedback joystick made every was the Microsoft Sidewinder 2 FF joystick. The Logitech G940 is the worst force feedback joystick. One has to hide a small detector to make the force feedback work as it should, and the motor of the force feedback is very noisy!

 

2. Very important: Two types of fire buttons that you can press with your pointing finger. One to fire guns, and one for other ammunition.

 

3. Very important: Slew hats on the top of the joystick, that can be used to slew pointers, aming crosses, cameras etc. Most joysticks today only have binary slew hats, that can slew up, down, left, right and sometimes also diagonal (but not always). A good joystick should have analogue slew hats, which allow to slew pointers to all directions, but also, to define the speed of the slew determined by the amount of slew you apply on the hat. If the slew is more to the center, then the speed should be slow, if the slew is more to the border, the slew should be fast...

 

7. Very important: Rudder function by rotating the stick left or right. The Logitech or the Thrustmaster T-1600M have this function. However, more expense joysticks like the Saitek X55 or the Thrustmaster Hotas lack this function. You need special pedals for that, which is hard to setup and remove, and is an additional cost.

 

4. Important: Various buttons on the top of the joystick, typically to fire rockets, targetting, selecting and changing targets, etc... Most joysticks have this functionality.

 

5. Important: An analogue slider to apply trust to engines. I find only some joysticks to have this functionality.

 

6. Switches or buttons that can be applied to certain plane functions. I find some joysticks to have this feature very much developed. Like to hotas or the Saitek X55... Some joysticks have merely buttons, like the Thrustmaster T-1600M or the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.

 

7. Lights: Useful to have lights indicating if certain switches are on or off...

 

 

Well ... If somebody on the forum could highlight me a model that have these options, I think it would help a lot of people ... Most joysticks have lots of features described above, but not all inclusive. I find Logitech one of the most dissapointing companies today when it comes to joystick production. For some reason they are releasing at least 3 to 4 different mouse and controller types a year, but when it comes to joysticks, they have the same model available for the last 5 years ... Find below a list of available joysticks. I've indicated with a * the ones that i have personally used during my virtual flight career...

 

Sven

 

Can be found here. Granted, no fancy lights, bells, or whistles, but, still to this day the most programmable bullet proof HOTAS out there. IMO.

[RFC Rudel]

Can be found here. Granted, no fancy lights, bells, or whistles, but, still to this day the most programmable bullet proof HOTAS out there. IMO.

 

nop

 

HERE

 

http://www.bugeyetech.com/

[Vincent90]

nop

 

HERE

 

http://www.bugeyetech.com/

Damn, any info on the price range? The fact that the manufacturer doesn't post it online already says a lot...

[Sokol1_br]

The (Bugeytech) announced - but not released - "low cost " version of the DèJa Vú F-16 HOTAS had the price mentioned (Facebook) in ~2.800$ range... :music_whistling:

 

http://www.f-16grips.com/

 

I doubt that this will offer any advantage - from flights games point of view - over a Warthog.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Sokol1_br

[Drona]

Its "around $2,800" which is "low cost" for the military, but that's really really really high-end for us desktop simmers, but not for those who build cockpits and stuff. They'll afford it I guess.

 

https://www.facebook.com/Bugeyetechnologies/photos/a.619616144813004.1073741827.619612498146702/746940678747216/?type=3&theater

[RFC Rudel]

Its "around $2,800" which is "low cost" for the military, but that's really really really high-end for us desktop simmers, but not for those who build cockpits and stuff. They'll afford it I guess.

 

https://www.facebook.com/Bugeyetechnologies/photos/a.619616144813004.1073741827.619612498146702/746940678747216/?type=3&theater

 

 

well we have to live using VKB quality only:thumbup:

[531-Ghost]

nop

 

HERE

 

http://www.bugeyetech.com/

 

You sir are delusional if you think the average flight sim enthusiast is going to shell out that much cash for a hobby. Unless they've got nothing better to do with their cash. Not to mention, still not nearly as programmable as CH Products using Control Manager v4.55.

[RFC Rudel]

You sir are delusional if you think the average flight sim enthusiast is going to shell out that much cash for a hobby. Unless they've got nothing better to do with their cash. Not to mention, still not nearly as programmable as CH Products using Control Manager v4.55.

 

is not a hobby is an obsession :joystick:

my cash go to 1997 a8 (really goes to my wife but I like to think it goes to my car)

 

 

VKB Rules :thumbup:

[FlightControl]

Can be found here. Granted, no fancy lights, bells, or whistles, but, still to this day the most programmable bullet proof HOTAS out there. IMO.

 

 

 

With FFB?

[531-Ghost]

VKB, Still not nearly as programmable. Then again, neither are any other HOTAS, Throttle Quadrants, Pedals on the market today.

 

CH Products were the first with FFB. Alas, 'tis no more, and I said "most".

 

Unfortunately, there have been no new hardware since the Eclipse Yoke.

[harf4ng]

1. Very important: A working force feedback function. This is very important for flying helicopters. When you trim the helicopter rotors, the stick should take the position of the last trimmed position.

 

This is funny that you're talking about helicopters, because the best sticks for helicopters are not force feedback sticks, but full length sticks.

 

Like the komodosim cyclics, or the pro trainer...

http://www.komodosimulations.co.uk/cyclic.html

http://www.pro-flight-trainer.com/fr/

 

And those are not force feedback sticks.

 

You need a full length one because you need precision around the center that you can barely have with a small stick.

 

And the think you're talking about is the force trim, and they are not available in many helicopters. In a lot of helicopters (the ones without full electronic systems) when you release the stick it will move everywhere, it will not stay in place. A real helicopter pilot told me that.

 

And there is no return to center in an helicopter, and the stick is not connected to wings like in a plane, therefore in a helicopter you feel nothing on the stick, no resistance, no move on the stick while you fly...

 

BUT... yes, the force trim could be useful to mimic most modern helicopters.

 

AND... rich, from komodo simulation, is designing a force trim base for his cyclics. I own a full size replica of a EC135 cyclic, it is a very fine piece of hardware from komodo, maybe I'll buy the force trim base when it will be out. This is not force feedback, no response from game, but this is the most realistic stick for helicopters around... (in this price range ^^)

Edited February 5, 2016 by harf4ng

[Bucic]

I think you're just trying to bash the Warthog?

TM warthog joystick broken - Page 3 - ED Forums

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2606231#post2606231

:music_whistling:

[RFC Rudel]

VKB, Still not nearly as programmable. .

 

 

Software? that can be fixed fast

 

VKB provide a unique approach to controllers design based on layers

 

Sticks

Mechanical

Electronics

Extensions/upgrades

parts

 

 

you can upgrade, or replace and is quality, hope it can grow in the industry so we can have more options for each layer.

 

Yes, still they have not put all the meat on the grill but they are close.

[Sokol1_br]

VKB, Still not nearly as programmable.

 

If "programmable" means 'press a button to press keys', they can, and don't need a program running in background, as the macros is stored in Controller EPROM.*

 

What they lack is clear English instructions on how do this, for common users.*

 

Dont know the usefulness of this, but instead divide POV HAT in 8 angles their Config Soft allow divide in 240... :huh:

 

* This maybe generate a dangerous situation, a guy that don't know what are doing messing in controller EPROM...

 

Their USB controller NJoy32 can handle Warthog/Cougar grips (shift register) or CH grips (key matrix).

 

This "unknown" brand really innovate in joystick make, with mechanics and electronics solutions ahead of traditional brands, but they are - market wise - in "wrong" part of the World... :noexpression:

 

To be HOTAS need a standalone throttle, and two models are under development, the first target for WWII simmers - a mix of Fw 190/P-51 throttle design - with controls for this planes specific needs like propeller pitch, mixture... the other model (I guess) is "jet" oriented.

[FlightControl]

Check this out for those having an x-55... This post contains a registry hack to enable the throttle mini stick to act like a joystick in directx. In other words, the throttle mini stick will be recognized by directX as a joystick so you can map it in DCS controller axis commands...

 

 

 

https://m.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/2rudl0/xpost_rhotas_how_to_turn_x55_mouse_ministick_into/

[531-Ghost]

If "programmable" means 'press a button to press keys', they can, and don't need a program running in background, as the macros is stored in Controller EPROM.*

...

 

You've obviously never programmed in, or used Control Manager v4.55 :smilewink:

 

"Fixing" software to be as good as Control Manager, you'd need another Bob Church :noexpression:

[531-Ghost]

Check this out for those having an x-55... This post contains a registry hack to enable the throttle mini stick to act like a joystick in directx. In other words, the throttle mini stick will be recognized by directX as a joystick so you can map it in DCS controller axis commands...

 

 

 

https://m.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/2rudl0/xpost_rhotas_how_to_turn_x55_mouse_ministick_into/

 

 

The ProThrottle has been doing that for years (no hack needed).

[hansangb]

TM warthog joystick broken - Page 3 - ED Forums

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2606231#post2606231

:music_whistling:

 

Broken? Hardly. There are plenty of people using it just fine.

 

Could it be better? Hell yes.

Should it have been better? I think so.

Is it a deal breaker? hell no.

[Sokol1_br]

Check this out for those having an x-55... This post contains a registry hack to enable the throttle mini stick to act like a joystick in directx. In other words, the throttle mini stick will be recognized by directX as a joystick so you can map it in DCS controller axis commands...

 

https://m.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerou...inistick_into/

 

The ProThrottle has been doing that for years (no hack needed).

 

Apples and Oranges.

 

This X-55 "slew cursor" is not a "mini-stick" - is a pressure device (transducer?) originally set for send digital outputs, so the "hack" is need to be used in analog mode (axis).

 

PRO Throttle or Cougar TQS use mini-stick (PS2 like) with potentiometer, always in analog mode (axis).

[531-Ghost]

Apples and Oranges.

 

This X-55 "slew cursor" is not a "mini-stick" - is a pressure device (transducer?) originally set for send digital outputs, so the "hack" is need to be used in analog mode (axis).

 

PRO Throttle or Cougar TQS use mini-stick (PS2 like) with potentiometer, always in analog mode (axis).

 

Not always. Depends on how you'd like to program the mini-joystick in Control Manager.

[FlightControl]

Apples and Oranges.

 

This X-55 "slew cursor" is not a "mini-stick" - is a pressure device (transducer?) originally set for send digital outputs, so the "hack" is need to be used in analog mode (axis).

 

PRO Throttle or Cougar TQS use mini-stick (PS2 like) with potentiometer, always in analog mode (axis).

 

I am lost. OK. Question of terminology. Whatever it is called, slew stick, mini strick, pressure device... It all comes down to the same thing. This stick is by default not recognized as a joystick. Although, it can be, using a small registry fix as described. Then indeed you can use this as an analogue joystick and map it in DCS to any axis...

 

I know it is not perfect, but it may be an eye opener to X-55 users, who have been in search for this for years... Anything wrong with this?

 

Sven