Survival in the F-15 - new to electronic warfare

[TAW_Blaze]

And who do you think flies 10 or more hours of TRAINING per week WITH an instructor? That's right, ****ing nobody! I flew a shitload of hours when I was a 104th cadet and I'm fairly sure I didn't have that much per week spent in actual training. I might have flown over 30 hours a week overall though, but that's a different thing.

 

Point is you require way too much extra work because other things are impossible to represent in the game, and you know what I mean.

[Sweep]

but most people are cross-checking the bandit

 

This...Too true...

 

:megalol:

[GGTharos]

And who do you think flies 10 or more hours of TRAINING per week WITH an instructor?

 

Who said anything about per week?

 

That's right, ****ing nobody!

 

Exactly, because you made that up :)

 

 

I flew a shitload of hours when I was a 104th cadet and I'm fairly sure I didn't have that much per week spent in actual training.

 

... You do training? I thought you were born best fighter pilot in the world! :D

 

Point is you require way too much extra work because other things are impossible to represent in the game, and you know what I mean.

 

I know what you mean. Excuses. You don't like to do it that way, that's fine. Don't attempt to tell me I'm wrong because you don't like to do it that way though, your crutch is still a crutch.

[SDsc0rch]

And who do you think flies 10 or more hours of TRAINING per week WITH an instructor? That's right' date=' ****ing nobody! [/quote']

 

 

haaaaahaahahahhahahahahaaaaaaaaahhhhahaaaaaa!

[TAW_Blaze]

Missread, thought you said 10 hours per week.

 

So your band-aid solution is that you just throw in far far more hours. Great. Soon we'll arrive where you have to be a full time DCS pilot to be competitive in BFM. Too bad this is unrealistic for all the 100% of players.

 

Not to mention the part where you say "very competent" instructor. As far as instructing BFM goes, off the top of my head I can count them on one hand, and I know some of the best that's around. And don't tell me the community is full of hidden BFM gods because inaccessible monks that practice their religion on mountain peaks that mortals can't reach might aswell be nonexistant to everyone else. :D

 

So your way might be a thing but realistically speaking nobody has the chance to go through with it.

[jester_]

BFM is more of a feeling thing rather than a "he is diving, so I must do a turn." You can develop that feeling; some people are just good at it.

[Bushmanni]

I have to say that you can get a pretty good sense of how hard you are pulling after some training (You do need to know how fast you started though). It might be different for different people but I know it's possible. You can feel it by the turn rate (from the speed of horizon zipping by), from G (OWS beeps and tunnel vision), from sound cues, from cockpit vibration and from how hard you are actually pulling your stick (muscle sense). You can also sense your turn from observing the bandit although this might be more relative turn performance than absolute, depending on the geometry. Eagle starts to tighten the turn on it's own when speed is reduced too low and this is pretty easy to spot and ease off the pull when you know the cues although you have usually bled more speed than is desired at this point.

 

If you have lots of smoothing in TIR or not enough it will screw up with your sense of direction and hence your sense of turning speed. If you have curve on your stick it will make it harder to predict how much you are actually pulling through muscle sense. If your cockpit sounds are too low you can't hear the roaring air at high AOA.

 

All of these cues are highly situation dependent but as you mostly need only either sustained, or max performance turn you don't have too many options to learn (ie. only the sustained turn as max performance is just pulling as hard as you can). After some practicing you get to feel it pretty nicely if you have all the cues available. Non max performance energy bleeding turns are made in relation to the bandit and there you have the bandit as a cue to tell how hard you need to pull (just enough to deny sensor nose). It helps to practice basics on a set of canned scenarios so that you don't get the whole cake in your mouth at once. The perch BFM setup is great for this. For me it took less than a year with training about 3 hours a week. It was probably lot less but I can't really remember anymore.

[GGTharos]

Bushmanni, if you set up the audio right, you also get the eagle roar and I personally believe that is a great additional cue as it can give you a better idea of the AoA you're at before you hit cues like vibration. :)

[Sweep]

Or just stop your bandit cross check and put your head on the real threat.

[GGTharos]

... the HuD? :D

 

Or just stop your bandit cross check and put your head on the real threat.

[Sweep]

Yep :D

 

Or go heads-down and look at gauges...That's always fun.

[Nerd1000]

Hold on, some people look at the HUD rather than their enemy while in BFM? I thought that watching your enemy would be the natural, obvious thing to do.

[GGTharos]

Not for the vast majority of flight simmers.

[Reflected]

When evading a missile. Do you just yank as hard as you can at preferably the last moment? Or do you try to keep the speed up?

[Nerd1000]

When evading a missile. Do you just yank as hard as you can at preferably the last moment? Or do you try to keep the speed up?

Most modern missiles can turn tightly enough to hit a 8-9G target under favorable circumstances. In any case, how do you know when the last minute is?

 

The general technique against radar guided, BVR missiles is the 'doppler notch'. Essentially it involves putting the incoming missile 90 degrees off your wing and diving so that from the missile's perspective you are below the horizon. Doppler radars like those used on modern fighters and missiles distinguish targets from the ground clutter by using the doppler effect to measure how fast a return is moving towards or away from the radar. By putting the radar 90 degrees off your nose and diving, you are making yourself move towards the incoming missile at the same speed as the ground, which hopefully will make you impossible to distinguish from the terrain. You combine this with chaff (which itself is pretty effective against SARH missiles in DCS). In the F-15 you also have the distinct advantage of having active homing missiles- if your enemy fires on you, pop a couple of 120s his way before starting your doppler notch. He'll be compelled to break off his attack to avoid your missiles, and if he only has SARH (like the Flanker) this will cause his missile(s) to go dumb.

 

Against an IR missile you want to reduce throttle to idle (or at least drop out of afterburner), pull hard and spam flares.

[Reflected]

A-haa, now it all makes sense! Thanks a lot for the advice!

[Sryan]

Since the thread is about survival I thought I'd also share the tip to do some cranking and weaving. When you're coming up in what looks like will be a head-on engagement at BVR range. Don't put the bandit straight at your 12 o'clock in the middle of your HUD. try to "crank" by keeping him 30-45-60° on your side. If he fires a missile while you got him on your 12 the missile has an easy time getting to you as the closure rate will be extremely high. You're just flying into the shot. If you're cranking the missile then it has a harder time getting to you as the closure rate is much lower. If you're cranking and your enemy isn't then you will have an edge on him even though he should actually have the longer range advantage, if he would be carrying an R27-ER.

 

The second tip I have is weaving. You can think of weaving as making microscopic movements without really intending on changing direction. Missiles don't just home in on your aircraft, they calculate a point in space and time where they will intercept you by using a technique called PN ( proportional navigation ). by constantly moving a little bit you are constantly shifting this point. doing a minor dive or climb of just a few hundred feet or so will cause a missile thats still a few miles out to do some fairly drastic moves as it prepares to intercept you. This will expend energy and reduce its range. The effect is most apperent when sometimes you'll see a SAM launched against you. You do a steep dive and prepare to put the radar on your 3-9 line ( the 90° technique someone else just described in order to obscure yourself from the doppler effect) but the missile just drills itself into the ground because it calculated a point to impact you below the surface. When you're flying smooth the missile with your name on it is coasting smooth as well.

 

Yanking hard will only rarely defeat a missile. Missiles at speed happily pull around 40g in a corner, and they don't chase you through the corner, they lead you in it. Only rarely you will get lucky and dodge a shot in a yank.

 

Hope it helps :)

[blkspade]

Yes it is. By and large if your distance is so great in BFM that the opponent is turning transparent, you're both doing poor BFM anyway.

 

In any case, if you're going to take your eyes off the bandit to check the HuD (or as most people do, take your eyes off the HuD to check on the bandit :) ) you pretty much deserve what you get. If you're looking at him constantly and only take your eyes off for a moment while he's predictable, you'll pick him up again.

If you use terrain cues so you're looking in the right places, you'll pick him up again.

The visibility issue is an issue, but it's no excuse for having a laser etching of the HuD picture in your face ;)

 

Oh, yeah? Visibility is questionable at 2nm for the larger sized fighters, and gets worse as they get smaller in size. Basically anything that isn't a flanker or eagle. Against humans, you don't even always have the same clouds. To some extent you could zoom, just to get tunnel vision and have nothing but the cockpit scratches to try and determine buffet. As Blaze mentioned there is zero sense of speed, along with zero peripheral vision. You can quite easily bleed speed into a turn and not hear a single beep until you're already too slow. Or you're at the opposite end on the spectrum trying to keep a randomly semi-visible dot in the non blackening part of your screen. I'm clearly not saying you should be glued to your HUD, but you can't pretend people don't have to fight the sim just as much as the bandit.

[GGTharos]

Oh, yeah? Visibility is questionable at 2nm for the larger sized fighters, and gets worse as they get smaller in size.

 

Yep, I agree. And I also ask, why are you 2nm away from your bandit? Of course, there are reasons - you merge high and fast it's going to be huge TCs. But you certainly have options:

 

You can go 1C, or alternatively, your bandit is quite predictable in these anyway. You lose sight and can't find him again because you're not watching as he's passing your 3-9 line, and he's gone somewhere where you're not thinking to look.

 

Against humans, you don't even always have the same clouds.

 

Yep, that's an issue.

 

As Blaze mentioned there is zero sense of speed, along with zero peripheral vision.

 

I've never had sense of speed in any real aircraft up at altitude, except for aircraft behavior. I'm not that experienced, but that's how it was for me. Knowing your speed is a matter knowing your BFM entry, knowing how your aircraft performs, and watching the cues. You don't just have visual cues, there are finer audio cues as well. And one of your biggest cues is performance vs. bandit.

 

You can quite easily bleed speed into a turn and not hear a single beep until you're already too slow.

 

Everything you're telling me so far screams 'I don't know how to read the bandit' to me. Along with 'I want to stick the bandit in my HuD', etc. etc. Obviously I haven't flown with you so I'm making assumptions, but that's what they are. I know these issues, I have to deal with them myself - I have plenty of bad sim-pilot habits.

 

Or you're at the opposite end on the spectrum trying to keep a randomly semi-visible dot in the non blackening part of your screen. I'm clearly not saying you should be glued to your HUD, but you can't pretend people don't have to fight the sim just as much as the bandit.

 

I'm not trying to be mean to you or anything - I'm well aware of the limitations of the game, but the basic rules of BFM still remain starting with lose sight, lose the fight. It's neither unfair nor wrong. And keep in mind that the game is 'unfair' to everyone almost equally.

[TAW_Blaze]

Best defense against any missile is not letting it reach you. This SHOULD be your #1 strategy to defeat anything aimed at you. This is also why SA is as important as it is. Positioning yourself to be in energetic superiority and maneuvering properly will create a hug difference between his missile's legs and yours'. Albeit if you do the wrong maneuvers at the wrong time you'll fly right into his missile energetic advantage or not (this is especially important with the shit ranges we have).

 

I'll give you an example. Say you're flying at 25k and the bandit is in the dirt and at 5-7 nm you try to pull a split S after firing. Now ideally this move would either make his missile fly into the ground or lose you in the vertical 'notch'. But if you set it up wrong it'll actually make it easier for his missile to catch you. This is where experience becomes king. A high amount of flight hours combined with a high level of knowledge combines into a killer mind that can and will understand what he can get away with in a given situation.

 

As far as winning a fight on energy your main tools are using your great climbrate/acceleration and cranking that I explained before.

 

Every other type of defense should come after this on a strategic level. Obviously not every fight comes as you want it so you will have to pick the right tactic for that exact scenario. Sometimes you have as much time as a blink of an eye to decide.

 

Other than defeating attacks based on energy you can defeat their guidance too. Depending on threat type this can involve a lot of things:

 

1) against SARH breaking the lock of the opponent's radar. Mostly done by notching or breaking line of sight.

 

2) putting terrain between you and the missile, or making it pull into the terrain.

 

3) ducking inside Rmin at launch, most common in BFM where you avoid IR SRMs by either not giving up angles or staying close to the guy.

 

Trust me on this you should start with the default method I described, winning the energy fight is by far more crucial than any of the other methods. This is especially true in fights that are more than a 1v1.

 

Don't sell your soul to the devil and become a lawnmower like the rest of the fools. :megalol:

[blkspade]

Why would I be 2nm from the bandit? Well partially accounting for pre-merge, and how easily you can come seriously close to a bandit and neither of you sees each other. Some things are more of given when you are specifically training BFM, as opposed to an open combat environment, and you still have times where you can be looking at him the whole time and he's suddenly gone. That also tends to be the point where you can't clearly see his aspect, without having him locked.

 

I used 2nm as an example as that is around where you'll start to see a Mig29 as you're entering the merge. I specifically use the old DACT missions to practice things like maintaining visibility and IR missile denial/avoidance (and random BVR stuff). I once had a heater mission setup against an F-16, and no amount of "doing it right" in the world is going to keep one visible post-merge. This was before the super visible flares and afterburners, which probably aren't sticking around. I had something similar vs another Eagle which in hindsight leads me to believe it may be easier to visibly track the Eagle.

 

You know why I want stick my bandit in my hud more often not? Because most engagements in an open combat environment against humans will absolutely dictate the need to, as to have any idea where the bandit is and what he is doing. If you're head-on and fire your "BVR" missile 'within (in)visible range' and then crank (like you should), looking out of the cockpit you can only see if he reciprocates (ET), flares, or your missile going stupid while the motor is still going. All of which you need to be doing. You then you check if he's going for the notch, to see your radar going into MEM mode, which is your last chance to use your hud to know where to zoom else turn and run and wonder if he has recommited in EOS. Or worse, you engage him at hide and seek, and with any luck you at least hear each other and begin looking for might not be dirt/dust on your monitor. You are more likely catch a glimpse of him in the corner of the VSD than in the sky.

[Nerd1000]

Don't sell your soul to the devil and become a lawnmower like the rest of the fools. :megalol:

Only prop planes can be lawnmowers (how does a jet cut the grass without a propeller?). Low and slow jets should be called Leafblowers. :smartass:

[TAW_Blaze]

I'm pretty sure burner trails can burn up the grass. :megalol:

[BSS_Sniper]

Missread, thought you said 10 hours per week.

 

So your band-aid solution is that you just throw in far far more hours. Great. Soon we'll arrive where you have to be a full time DCS pilot to be competitive in BFM. Too bad this is unrealistic for all the 100% of players.

 

Not to mention the part where you say "very competent" instructor. As far as instructing BFM goes, off the top of my head I can count them on one hand, and I know some of the best that's around. And don't tell me the community is full of hidden BFM gods because inaccessible monks that practice their religion on mountain peaks that mortals can't reach might aswell be nonexistant to everyone else. :D

 

So your way might be a thing but realistically speaking nobody has the chance to go through with it.

 

So, do you have to say sir to guys in your group with higher rank and salute? lol Seriously. Who are these computer pilot hero instructors of yours? Other than some game techniques, unless someone is currently an active duty mil pilot or retired, I'd take what they say with a grain of salt. Having said that, our group has several of each. :)

[GGTharos]

So, do you have to say sir to guys in your group with higher rank and salute? lol Seriously.

 

Yeah lol seriously. Salute mr presumtuous :)