My VKB Black Mamba MkIII arrived today... Unboxing Pics!

[SinusoidDelta]

That's certainly one way to get the job done. Has anyone considered directly replacing the gimbal springs with a spring/damper rod? I had my stick apart yesterday and measure the length with some dial calipers. At center position the gap is 27mm and 33mm at full stroke. I haven't been able to locate any dampers that small.

 

Side question. Could someone explain how to enable dual rate?

[VO101_MMaister]

Guys, be aware that these micro damper struds have a very little effect when you have a half a kg clump on a 200mm long lever. They were designed for lightweight modell cars. I don`t say that they are not worth a try, but dont`t expect too much. I would rather go for a pair of adjustable motorcycle/ scooter steering dampers and get them mounted between the control column extension and the base plate

[rrohde]

Has anyone considered directly replacing the gimbal springs with a spring/damper rod?

 

Would be nice if VKB could custom-build those, and offer them officially as spring replacements. :thumbup:

[rrohde]

Guys, be aware that these micro damper struds have a very little effect when you have a half a kg clump on a 200mm long lever. They were designed for lightweight modell cars. I don`t say that they are not worth a try, but dont`t expect too much. I would rather go for a pair of adjustable motorcycle/ scooter steering dampers and get them mounted between the control column extension and the base plate

 

Good points! Maybe the smaller dampeners would be useful in addition to the existing springs - not replacing them?

 

But you're right - a more potent solution might be useful here....

[VO101_MMaister]

Good points! Maybe the smaller dampeners would be useful in addition to the existing springs - not replacing them?

 

But you're right - a more potent solution might be useful here....

 

 

The miniature linear dampers which would fit into this compact casing have a negligible effect.

 

A simple, and quite good solution would be the use of rubber or elastomer springs instead of the current steel ones. The rubber has a natural damping effect due to the internal friction in its material.

I don`t know if it is possible to find one which can be a direct replacement, but I am sure it is not that expensive to make one and order a bigger batch of it.

[Sokol1_br]

The R/C damper will reduce the grip oscillation in some degree when return to center due spring force (at least with a grip don't weigh a kilogram). :)

 

[ame]

[/ame]

 

The purpose in use damper in joystick like Mamba is not reduce this oscillation?

 

For helicopter flying the damper is used in different way, without spring to return to center an thus capable to retain the grip last position - (RiP) Tarmac Aces, Komodo...

[SinusoidDelta]

:DThat's a magnificent design. The Mamba doesn't quite have the real estate to work with inside the housing. You'd have to mount the spring/damper externally on the extension. I came across a calle Fibro that makes very compact gas filled dampers. Chexk out the 300mb PDF catalog. I believe the smallest is 67 mm max stroke.

 

http://www.fibro.de/en/standard-parts/product-groups/f-springs-gas-springs.html?ga=0%3Ftype%3D100

 

Edit: I didn't say they were cheap :D

Edited June 23, 2016 by SinusoidDelta

[VO101_MMaister]

The R/C damper will reduce the grip oscillation in some degree when return to center due spring force (at least with a grip don't weigh a kilogram). :)

 

 

The purpose in use damper in joystick like Mamba is not reduce this oscillation?

 

For helicopter flying the damper is used in different way, without spring to return to center an thus capable to retain the grip last position - (RiP) Tarmac Aces, Komodo...

 

These are not micro struds, and would not fit the Mamba`s casing.

 

By the way it is not very smart that the dampers are connected to the CAM arms :noexpression: If you move the stick swiftly the damper slowed cam arms cannot catch up.

 

The dampers have to be connected to the main gimbal elements or the stick shafts to avoid this.

[rrohde]

Did some more things to my Mamba configuration:

 

First, I toyed with adding a second set of springs (they fit without a problem, btw) to the gimbal, and tested it.

I noticed that it didn't improve what I wanted - a little more solid and stiff center when using the extension. I also read that the force of a second set of springs could harm the gimbal - and I didn't want to take a chance.

 

Instead, I used rubber bands instead - and it actually dampens the center a tiny bit.... not enough, but it's noticeable. Also, the spring noise is gone since the rubber bands seem to sit tightly across the springs. :thumbup:

 

See pics:

[rrohde]

And here's another thing:

 

I wanted to have the ability to have a side-stick as well. Considering that I had that craigslist welder customize a second Obutto flightstick mount for me, I put it to good use today and added it to my setup.

 

I feel that a side-stick, with shorter throw, is more fun for fully fly-by-wire planes like the Mirage 2000 (and hopefully future DCS modules as well).

 

I also needed to come up with a better solution of mounting the Mamba itself to either the center or the side flightstick mounts than using screws (which would be a pain to do on the fly). So, after some consideration I had an epiphany and raided my wife's desk to find some binder clips. These little guys are strong when used in groups, and I was able to "clip" the Mamba's base to the Obutto's flightstick mount as desired. :thumbup:.

 

This makes swapping the Mamba from being a center-stick to being a side-stick a breeze, and adding/removing the extension is simple enough with an allen key; however, a quick-release solution designed by VKB would be better...

 

Also, never ceases to amaze me how awesome it was by VKB to allow the grip to be rotated as desired - I can have a perfectly straight grip for my side-stick setup, and a leftward rotated grip for my center-mount setup. My wrist is grateful for that. ;)

 

See pics:

Edited July 7, 2016 by rrohde

[Sokol1_br]

First, I toyed with adding a second set of springs (they fit without a problem, btw) to the gimbal, and tested it.

. I also read that the force of a second set of springs could harm the gimbal - and I didn't want to take a chance.

 

One guy manage to damage Mamba Mk.III gimbal with the two more strong springs+extension+Warghog grip.

 

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4255200/Re:_VKB_Black_Mamba_Mk.III#Post4255200

[rrohde]

Yeah, I read that before and that's why I removed the 2nd set of springs again and used rubber bands instead! :) Thanks Sokol!

[Bourrinopathe]

The side stick config looks great!

I'm thinking about adding an arm-rest by modifying a dedicated sim-chair…

 

I've always been more comfortable with a side stick and I'd be curious to know what are/were the conclusions of the russians about the comparison between both positions (afaik they tested the lateral stick on modified Flanker).

It's also probably highly dependent on the control system, FBW design and several considerations such as the pilots habits and interoperability…

 

Anyway, congratz on that Obutto modular cockpit ;) It fits VKB's philosophy perfectly.

[rrohde]

It's actually pretty neat to be able to swap these things around on an as-desired basis. So thanks. :)

 

As a side note, I have to say though, that after some testing yesterday, only the Mirage 2000 seems to somewhat benefit from that setup in terms of responsiveness.

 

Needless to say, today I went back to the center-mounted stick setup, and honestly, I prefer it in terms of comfort, accuracy and overall feel.

 

I agree - a modular setup is the way to go. Cannot wait for VKB's KG-12 grip... :)

[Yurgon]

I agree - a modular setup is the way to go.

 

Or just get two of them, then you don't have to glue pictures together in Photoshop. :D

[rrohde]

Or just get two of them, then you don't have to glue pictures together in Photoshop. :D

 

GIMP - not Photoshop. ;)

 

But no, no need for 2x. Really nice and easy to swap that stuff around as needed. Even though I might still get the VKB Gunfighter when it comes out for a sidestick. :thumbup:

[Yurgon]

GIMP - not Photoshop. ;)

 

Well there you go, you can easily afford another just by not purchasing Photoshop. And then get a small car on top of that. :lol:

 

(Yeah, I know there's this new licensing model where Photoshop isn't quite as expensive as it used to be. But I don't want to ruin a good joke because of facts. :P)

[Bourrinopathe]

@rrohde:

(or anyone with a center stick)

 

I have a question about your center stick installation and feedback ;)

 

I'd like to know if you noticed a tendency to involuntary apply some force to the left while pulling the stick towards you?

 

I'm wondering if it's as natural and precise to pull the stick with a central column as we might have a slight propensity to rotate the forearm relative to the elbow's axis while pulling an object closer to our belly/waist (unless you're a Wing Chun enthusiast ;)).

Maybe it just goes with some learning curve or natural adaptation?

I'm using a side stick and pulling the stick is right in line with the elbow, with the arm on the side, so there's no parasitic movement (also the stick is shorter - so less amplitude).

I tested my Black Mamba in the center position but I don't have a perfectly adjusted installation like yours.

[Bearfoot]

@rrohde:

(or anyone with a center stick)

 

I have a question about your center stick installation and feedback ;)

 

I'd like to know if you noticed a tendency to involuntary apply some force to the left while pulling the stick towards you?

 

I'm wondering if it's as natural and precise to pull the stick with a central column as we might have a slight propensity to rotate the forearm relative to the elbow's axis while pulling an object closer to our belly/waist (unless you're a Wing Chun enthusiast ;)).

Maybe it just goes with some learning curve or natural adaptation?

I'm using a side stick and pulling the stick is right in line with the elbow, with the arm on the side, so there's no parasitic movement (also the stick is shorter - so less amplitude).

I tested my Black Mamba in the center position but I don't have a perfectly adjusted installation like yours.

 

Switched to a center configuration a little while back and love it!

 

Using a TMWH + 20 cm extension sitting on a wooden block between my legs ... so no fancy perfectly adjusted installation.

 

I understand your concern. But -- using the control indicator as feedback -- I honestly see no more of an effect due to the radial ball-and-socket gimbal (the "blending-of-axes" problem) rather than of position.

 

But both are minimal and NBD.

 

Why?

 

Because *we* are not robots running a script!

 

What I mean is that if I change pitch, and there is roll input either due to my imprecision in moving my arm forward or the blending-axes issue, then I automatically feed in some lateral displacement to compensate. This is so minute as to be almost imperceptible to anyone else but myself. In fact, most of the time it is imperceptible to even myself as it takes place almost at an unconscious level! It's like balancing on a bike or (not too) narrow ledge: you make constant microsadjustments to correct.

 

The above holds true when I have the control indicator up and am focussing on it. But, of course, in practice, I am actually doing something with the aircraft, e.g. lining up on a runway, holding a hover over a point, or trying to "put the thing on the thing" (crosshairs/aimpoint/ordinance on target). In all these cases, the microadjustments flow even *more* naturally, because I am constantly feeding in horizontal as well as vertical corrections to my flight/hover, and I am not even keeping track or caring whether it is due to responding to and compensating for parasitic movement, blending of axes, or (simulated) "real-world" stimulus (aircraft course, inertia, wind, etc.).

Edited July 13, 2016 by Bearfoot

[rrohde]

All good points and observations, Bourrinopathe! It does happen as you describe.

 

I notice, that for precision flying purposes, I have to be careful to not let that "pulling inadvertently to the side" happen too often - because it does. However, it is also easily corrected by looking at the HUD or the attitude indicator. So, it's a matter of getting used to - as you said by the means of adaptation.

 

I wonder if that could be somehow tweaked by using a different cam on the roll axis that would allow one to "feel" when one's in danger of pulling to either side while pulling up the nose of the aircraft; I am sure some tactile feedback would help (compared to the soft-center cams that I use for both pitch and roll).

 

At the same time, I don't want to miss the way how I can handle helos and warbirds now (esp. the 109 during landing is amazing) thanks to the extended stick, as the looser center allows for extremely small inputs now.

 

Again, good observation of something that I noticed as well, but have learned to compensate for. I wonder if other users of extended sticks (Mambas, TM Warthogs, etc) experience the same?

 

How about real-life pilots?

[Bearfoot]

@rrohde:

(or anyone with a center stick)

 

I have a question about your center stick installation and feedback ;)

 

I'd like to know if you noticed a tendency to involuntary apply some force to the left while pulling the stick towards you?

 

I'm wondering if it's as natural and precise to pull the stick with a central column as we might have a slight propensity to rotate the forearm relative to the elbow's axis while pulling an object closer to our belly/waist (unless you're a Wing Chun enthusiast ;)).

Maybe it just goes with some learning curve or natural adaptation?

I'm using a side stick and pulling the stick is right in line with the elbow, with the arm on the side, so there's no parasitic movement (also the stick is shorter - so less amplitude).

I tested my Black Mamba in the center position but I don't have a perfectly adjusted installation like yours.

 

Should also note that are arms have multiple articulation points, which results in a different motion complex to effect pitch control in the side position vs. center.

 

In the side position there is more elbow extending/retracting.

 

If this same motion were used in the center position then indeed there would a lot of lateral movement introduced.

 

However. the motion in the center position is very different, with much more shoulder motion.

 

Try this as an experiment:

 

(1) Keep your arm at your side, with elbow crooked at 90 degree angle and hand outstretched. Move hand back so it is by your side, but make sure there is no lateral movement (can imagine your palm on a fixed rail).

 

(2) Hold your hand out from your belly, centered over your navel, palm open and facing in. Then try to move your palm in to touch your belly and then out again, trying to keep the path as straight as possible.

 

You see? :) Easy enough to move palm in and out with no major lateral movement in those two different positions, but completely different motions are involved!

[Bourrinopathe]

Thanks for the feedback guys! It's fueling the thoughts.

 

You're right Bearfoot, there are different motor skills we can use to achieve the same key movement. And we don't have to struggle with a shaky cockpit or high-Gs! (but some movements might imply more strain than others - to keep the analogy, moving the palm closer to knees is more stressful for the wrist)

 

From a pure sim piloting skills point of view, I think it's not much of an issue how you install your devices - some people play with their HOTAS on the desk, in front of the screen and close together, so they have to adapt… and probably grunt a little ;)

 

I'm pretty sure there must be some kind of biotechnology study and I'd be curious to know (in details) why the Russians stuck to the central column.

 

From a design and ergonomics standpoint, I was wondering what kind of controls could be the most efficient for a FBW system (and less tiring for the hand-wrist-arm). (less design limitations = less required adaptation… and hopefully: improved performance)

Beyond that, it's interesting to think about the technical and commercial limitations for our home HOTAS as it will shape the controls we'll have.

 

That's one of the reasons why I like VKB so much. Their modular approach allow to modify their devices to YOUR usage. That's a rare thing.

I know VKB though about the Gladiator (Plus) ergonomics a lot before finally settling for the current design.

And how brainstormed will be their modern throttle? ;)

 

>>> interesting throttle heh? <<<

 

(@rrohde: I still kept my "hard center" cam for the roll axis (same x and y curves in DCS) and I really enjoy having a zero-roll input haptic reference (mostly flying modern jets Su-27/L-39C/Mirage 2000C) - I'll probably test the soft center cam with the helos and propellers, later).

Edited July 13, 2016 by Bourrinopathe

[rrohde]

Had an epiphany yesterday, after constantly being aware of the fact that my VKB Mamba with extension ended being a tad too long for being 100% comfortable. I couldn't always rest my lower arm on my thigh as you should when having a center mount stick.

 

So I looked at the piece that the Craigslist welder cut for me, and realized that I can just turn it upside-down, and that should drop my stick by about 2 inches - and it did!

 

Now, the experience has improved already tremendously, by simply having my arm rest on my leg 100% of the time, making for a more relaxed posture during all flight maneuvers.

 

See updated pics:

 

The "lowered" Mamba:

 

 

 

Finally - the right ergonomics for me!