Mirage STILL Pulls to the Left

[haffende]

Just updated to 2.0.2 and the Mirage STILL pulls violently to the left going down the runway.

 

Waited for this update for a month now and this problem is STILL not fixed !!!...great progress in all other areas but please lets get the basics sorted....what use is it that I have to go down the runway with full right rudder and just manage to avoid going off the runway before lifting off....very disappointing.

[Kayos]

I've never had this issue with the Mirage.

[viperdogsnake]

Same here, using CH Rudder Pedals with ZERO issues in other modules. Been happening in 1.5 as well. Brake Pedals are NOT engaged at anypoint during the takeoff roll.

[haffende]

Quick action take off.......gear up down mapping is porked as well.

Edited April 15, 2016 by haffende

[f-18hornet]

Same here, using CH Rudder Pedals with ZERO issues in other modules. Been happening in 1.5 as well. Brake Pedals are NOT engaged at anypoint during the takeoff roll.

 

I can also confirm it as an owner of CH Rudder Pedals. I have default settings in DCS but in CH Control Manager I have some dead zones for global usage but in all other modules it is working well without any issue.

[haffende]

i understand cross winds but no issue in other modules....this problem has been fixed over several updates in 1.5......but does'nt look like its been addressed here....landing is just as funky.

Will 1.5.3 settings not port over to 2.0 ?

Edited April 15, 2016 by haffende

[DonJosh]

move the rudder, after that the rudder shoul be work fine. i had the same problem, but wenn i move the rudder on the runway everything works fine

[haffende]

Hi Cpt....sorry to be flippant but the issues here are identical to the ones that you already addressed over several updates on 1.5.3. and several threads already exist on this topic.

 

On take off there is a violent pull ( 50k +) to the left that cannot properly addressed with opposite rudder....resulting in leaving the runway.

 

On landing again going anywhere near the brakes results in a violent swerve to the r....again resolved in 1.5.3....before the brake chute arrived.

 

I am using an X55 and all other modules work fine....apologies for the flippancy but been waiting to fly in 2.0 for over a month now and just about un-flyable. Also I cannot get the gear to map to joystick or work on the G key....only works clicking in the cockpit.

[Vladinsky]

The only noticeable thing I found in the instant action take-off is that there's a zone of very little yaw authority between 50 and 80 knots after the nose wheel steering is off and before you have enough rudder authority to really do any kind of yaw corrections.

 

I also tried spawning in a runway take-off at Nellis with no kind of weather and it went absolutely dead straight down the middle with no rudder inputs.

 

 

Edit: Inducing some more drag with right stick certainly made it a lot easier to track straight(ish) down the runway.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Vladinsky

[f-18hornet]

Here is track in DCS 2.0.2.52262 version.

M2000C Take off.trk

[haffende]

1.5.3 beta works fine with no DB so why should it be different in 2.0.2 ?

 

Extract from CS regarding the fix for 1.5.2

 

Here are the relevant items from the change list:

-Update fuselage drag calculations

-Update landing gear mass

-Update NWS gain calculations

-Update control authority of rudder

-Fix NWS system pressure logic

-Fix flight model shuddering on ground

-Fix incorrect flight model tail airfoil shape

 

Updated and increased braking power to correct values

Updated anti-skid logic for much better landing, takeoff, and taxi control

Edited April 15, 2016 by haffende

[skypirate]

The cold&dark instant mission has very strong sidewind from left, hence the pulling this way. However I had no rudder authority on the take off run (even past 100 knots) and I end up twice in the ditch. The third try was struggle with the nose gear on and differential braking. Somehow managed to go up. Once up the rudder was working as expected. The landing is the same story, with this sidewind the only way to somehow keep the jet on the runway is to land with the nose wheel steering on and dance with the toe brakes. Definitely something is not right there..

[haffende]

It does seem crosswinds are the issue....I set a clean mission MP with no winds and flys fine. So it cant cope with a crosswind on landing or take off....as you say something is not right.

[f-18hornet]

Here is track in DCS 2.0.2.52262 version.

 

That one was with crosswind in instant action - Take Off.

This one is with no crosswind.

M2000C Take Off No Crosswind.trk

[FSKRipper]

Hm, I can confirm that the Mirage is behaving like before. Yes there is crosswind in the instant action mission but even full rudder authority can barely hold you on the runway until you reach 80-90kts. No Problems at all in 1.5.3

 

BTW loading took ages from my SSD but that should be related to the Starforce issue ED is already aware of...

 

EDIT: Added a 1.5.3 track with also 4m/s crosswind. You can compare steering Inputs.

Take off.trk

Take off 1_5_3.trk

Edited April 15, 2016 by FSKRipper

[rrohde]

I noticed that correcting with rudder input on the RWY after landing or before take-off seems to be overly accumulative in terms of the aircraft's responses: one has to constantly correct, but each correction leads to an increasingly amplified response from the aircraft. When adding brakes to the mix, the aircraft is almost impossible to control on the ground.

[gospadin]

I noticed that correcting with rudder input on the RWY after landing or before take-off seems to be overly accumulative in terms of the aircraft's responses: one has to constantly correct, but each correction leads to an increasingly amplified response from the aircraft. When adding brakes to the mix, the aircraft is almost impossible to control on the ground.

 

I reported this here and was told it was normal:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=164507

 

However, I can't get my head around the explanation, and like you, believe it's a bug.

 

--gos

[Duck21]

Hi,

got the same problem of pulling to the left on takeoff roll when doing the instant action cold&dark mission. Happens EVEREY time.

 

The problem however did not occur on another mission from Groom Lake AFB, but that was a custom multiplayer mission built by a friend of mine.

 

So the problem cannot originate from bad axis calibration or something like that. I didn't have that problem with the previous version of the M2000C. Didn't change the settings after the update. This started today updating to v2.0.2

[Kayos]

Does it also do this in Multiplayer? I haven't had this issue but maybe it's because the Multiplyer Servers I play on don't have cross winds?

[haffende]

I have added a small dead zone and it makes no difference. This problem existed, for some, in 1.5 and 2.0 when you first released the M2000C. You fixed it in code by 1.5.3 update 3. Do 1.5.3 and 2.0.2 share identical flight model code because the instant action missions in 1.5.3 work fine and 2.0.2 do not. I posted the parameters that you said you changed to solve this problem in 1.5.3 in my previous post in this thread.

[gospadin]

Without more info unsure what I can do about it. I'm going to keep working it but any additional info will make a big difference in narrowing it down.

 

I even went so far as to replay the track and just before throttle up, took control and the issue did not recreate itself. The most obvious is difference in controls when all others equal. The only thing I suggest is looking at adding a very small deadzone to see if that improves it for you and if so I'm looking into adding a very small deadzone built in to the controls code.

 

Please only report cases of this happening with no winds and keep in mind all the instant action missions have winds in it so we can narrow down the issue.

 

So here's my impression of what's happening and how to reproduce it.

 

If I apply a very small rudder input and hold it, what we see is that the plane's rotation accelerates over a few seconds. It starts off having a very small effect, but as you leave that small amount of deflection, the rate of turn increases, until it's so high you start skidding and cannot recover.

 

This isn't how a real plane should behave IMO. A small deflection should have a small, constant force on the aircraft (assuming the velocity of air flowing over the surface doesn't change wildly). While in a perfect physics world, this should slowly accelerate your turn, I'd expect that with wheel friction and momentum fighting the turn, this acceleration should increase very slowly. Furthermore, as rudder deflection returns back to zero, force on the aircraft should go to zero nearly immediately and the plane should roll straight. The rudder on the M-2000C is WAY behind the CG. Instead, as the deflection goes to zero, the yaw force slowly decreases towards zero but takes 4-5 seconds to hit zero.

 

As was suggested above, maybe the force from the rudder is accumulating per unit time.

 

It doesn't make sense to me that an airplane in calm wind rolling 90 kts could have any significant sustained yaw moment that would exceed the static lateral friction of the rubber tires and the huge centering force of the tail moving through the air.

 

It's mostly, though, that the application of rudder in the M-2000C feels completely different than every other plane in DCS while rolling on the ground. Maybe I've just gotten used to the other planes.

[f-18hornet]

Thanks so much! That was incredibly helpful, so the code of what is in 1.5.3 and 2.0.2 are exactly identical in regards to aerodynamic and controls in regards to yaw and gear. I am getting a feeling it is something specific to the Nevada terrain.

 

Doing a direct cross comparison to various runways in Nevada and Caucasus and the resultant forces and moments for each takeoff to see what I can find.

 

For comparison I did few tests today in 1.5.3.52018 and 2.0.2.5226. Those test were made with the same settings and of course with no wind. But this time it behaved how it should in all four attempts.:huh:

M2000C Take Off No Wind - 1.5.352018.trk

M2000C Take Off No Wind - 2.0.2 Groom Lake - no rudder input.trk

M2000C Take Off No Wind - 2.0.2 Nellis - test1 - no rudder input.trk

M2000C Take Off No Wind - 2.0.2 Nellis - test2 - with rudder input before take off.trk

[Duck21]

I think it's a combination of people not being aware of winds and an actual issue some are seeing.

Trust me I'm very well aware of the consequences that winds can have on an aircraft, I'm a pilot, not a gamer.

 

Maybe it's a problem of how the flight model reacts to crosswind? As I've said it happens to me on every take-off using the instant action cold & dark scenario.

 

The pull to the left is so strong I can NOT counter it using full right rudder input, then the aircraft is leaving the runway to the left.

 

Since this scenario is the only one so far I encounter this issue I'm going to experiment and see if I can do something that allows for a successful take-off.

[clanitho]

 

The pull to the left is so strong I can NOT counter it using full right rudder input, then the aircraft is leaving the runway to the left .

 

I have exactly the same problem since last 1.5.3 update (no wind of course)

I don't have the problem before this update.

 

Not tested in 2.0.2 because update is no more available.

[CannonousCrash]

Using 1.5.3 I also get pulling to the left on take off.

 

x55 and Saitek pro flight pedals