F-22 Raptor "sucks"

[superserb]

Time will tell...

 

and defence planning would be done so that you never know where that is.

 

 

 

this was long ago. they're not so tied down economicaly now. still, i wouldn't expect them to go anti-raptor full ahead, simply 'couse it's not a threat to them. but, some other people are interested in that field and it's just natural to include them in development to cut costs. I would expect them at the same time be quietly working on something brand new of their own. I would compare it with the intel/amd. you had those so-and-so amd 386es, then they weren't to be heard of in the 486 times, but then out of nowhere came the K6 and pwned intel ass :)

 

LOL :thumbup:.. Anyway, how things going in "Serbian Atina" ?

[Pilotasso]

Its kinda hard to electronically hide Big Bird. Without detection by Big Bird, Clam Shell and Flap Lid aren't all that effective in knowing where to look. Just speculating of course. :smilewink:

 

and defence planning would be done so that you never know where that is.

 

 

We were talking about 4rth gen concept, nothing to do with S-300, but then, there arent enough of them to use them as a first resort defense counter to the F-22. If your limited to SAM's without any measure of airpower, your in deep trouble. Usualy the side with more mobility is in advantage, and these days is increasingly more difficult to hide something the size of a S-300 complex from an airborne integrated AESA sensor array and other surveilance systems.

[TucksonSonny]

Ever programmed a real-time system? (Do you know what a real-time system is?)

 

 

I am active in the banking and insurance sector (real-time transactions all the time)

Even your copy of FC 1.2a is a real-time system. For the moment I am on a project with c#2005/Oracle 10Gr2 (It is a pain believe me, especially these slow web services:D )

[TucksonSonny]

lol there you go son- hang on to that last thread you have lol.. Lose the envy & jealousy, son. Make a life for yourself. Same for the rest of you who are so woefully inept that you need to change the topic to health care, voting fraud, and whatever that other anti-war cause was.. That horse died 40 yrs ago. Imagine-a Canadian criticizing someone else's health care system, LMAO

 

 

Why I have to be jealous?

For not having an ugly raptor flying over my home maybe.

My ass will be protected by 800 typhoons in the near future.

Anyway it is a pity that my country is not yet participating in this great Euro fighter-project!

 

With “F22 sucks” as a thread title is asking for trouble!

I think Pilatoss do hate the raptor too but he is afraid to out himself and he is afraid to be called odd!:D

 

About my life: it is kind of ok except the extra 50 000 euros that I still need to finish my crib ;)

 

BTW, I am very proud too to have the best health care system in the world (Belgium) The only problem is that I have taken only 3 days in 14 years because I was sick (ill) so I guess the US system would suit me much better :D .

[bflagg]

Also, the raptor is not 100% dependent on stealth, people tend to forget the reason why the F-117 is going to be phased out is because Stealth can be defeated in the future on an airframe specificaly designed after it for all its missions.

 

 

My info on this is quite the opposite.

The 117 is being phased out becasue the Raptor can do / will do the same job and makes keeping the 117 not cost effective anymore...

 

I suspect it will be around until the JSF is rolled out...

[GGTharos]

I am active in the banking and insurance sector (real-time transactions all the time)

Even your copy of FC 1.2a is a real-time system. For the moment I am on a project with c#2005/Oracle 10Gr2 (It is a pain believe me, especially these slow web services:D )

 

Neither FC nor the underlying windows OS are real-time systems ;) Are you kidding me?

 

But yeah, I see where you're coming from ... well...It isn't quite the same with military devices.

 

You have someone signing off that certain parts WILL WORK unless destroyed, including some of the computers. Same for the space shuttle (the SSG has a very expensive and interesting develpment program for the software, I'd say almost unlike any other)

[Guest IguanaKing]

Why I have to be jealous?

 

BTW, I am very proud too to have the best health care system in the world (Belgium) The only problem is that I have taken only 3 days in 14 years because I was sick (ill) so I guess the US system would suit me much better :D .

 

Good for you. If you ever WERE to contract a serious illness though, and you have the cash, you'll come to the US to have the best chance of living through it. :smilewink: Our system in the US works just fine, thank you very much, you just have to have the proper attitude of not expecting that anybody "owes" you anything. My company provides paid health care to all its employees. If we didn't do that...well...many of our employees would just go work for someone who does. I've had to use it a few times myself, a plane crash one year...and then there's my reptile hobby. That's been good for more than a few visits to the ER. :D We have the best docs here, because one doesn't usually pay a half million dollars in student loans by being a government employee. :smilewink:

[Guest IguanaKing]

My info on this is quite the opposite.

The 117 is being phased out becasue the Raptor can do / will do the same job and makes keeping the 117 not cost effective anymore...

 

I suspect it will be around until the JSF is rolled out...

 

The Wobbly Goblin will still be around for years to come, its not being phased out completely. It just has no A-A capability, so its being supplemented. ;)

[tflash]

Good for you. If you ever WERE to contract a serious illness though, and you have the cash, you'll come to the US to have the best chance of living through it.

 

No, I'm not. You should visit Belgium! When you see the beach though, you must start landing or you'll overshoot it. Don't bother about the air defenses.

 

BTW, there seems to be some bean-counting discussion also beyond these boards. I found this contribition by a nice-looking young lady that could be my next bookkeeper:

 

http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/stories/0815edtalmadge.html

 

(She will incur the wrath of Rhen, though. Rhen, always be polite with ladies!)

 

But then there are also hopefuls at Holloman:

 

http://www.alamogordonews.com/news/ci_4244922

 

And then the GAO adds some fuel to the discussion:

 

http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/nation/15213479.htm

[Guest IguanaKing]

LOL...yup...I'll put the wheels down and check three green right away. I'd love to visit Belgium. Do you guys still have no speed limits on your highways? I'd love to rent a nice, fast, motorcycle while I'm there and test my neck muscles. :D

[Guest IguanaKing]

BTW, I agree she is a very stunning, intelligent young lady. Her reasoning is solid, and I'd love for her to bear my children. BUT...it is clear that she doesn't have much knowledge in the area of tactical and strategic planning, nor does she have much knowledge of the systems involved. I respect her candidacy for a Doctorate in Security Studies, but she's not someone who has personally dealt with the things of which she writes, and it shows, HUGELY. When the F-15, F-16, and F-14 were developed...the US was currently engaged in fighting an enemy they could not see in the jungles of VietNam. None of those aircraft could tell a tunnel rat if the next door he opened didn't have a viper, cobra, or explosive behind it either, but they were still developed for a war that would never happen. Thus, they have been around for over 30 years, and nothing has been able to counter them in a significant way...and they'll be a very active part of the fleet for years to come. I can't think of a better return on an investment than that. Development of new aircraft costs LOTS of money, and the less often you have to do it...its money in the bank.

[nscode]

and these days is increasingly more difficult to hide something the size of a S-300 complex from an airborne integrated AESA sensor array and other surveilance systems.

 

and the other side knows that.

 

one way to do it is to use... 10 other S-300 sites :) Needless to say, fake ones :)

[Guest IguanaKing]

Can you afford to field 10 radars that electronically mimic Big Bird?

[nscode]

Neither FC nor the underlying windows OS are real-time systems ;) Are you kidding me?

 

But yeah, I see where you're coming from ... well...It isn't quite the same with military devices.

 

You have someone signing off that certain parts WILL WORK unless destroyed, including some of the computers. Same for the space shuttle (the SSG has a very expensive and interesting develpment program for the software, I'd say almost unlike any other)

 

Heh... a profesor of mine gave a trick question to his students on a test a few months ago: in what language would you write code to run a pacemaker :)

 

i think they all failed on that one :)

[Guest IguanaKing]

Just like a professor of mine put on a test..."Bandwidth is determined by...." One of the answers was "The size of the stage." Hehe...he was a comedian in his spare time. Nah, not really, but we still got a chuckle. :D

[rattler]

Glad we have the Typhoon up and operational since 2005. Lucky they are on our side. We were supposed to be discussing the new generation of A/C. Lets get the Politics and Economics out of this. We all know the Raptor is expensive. I would say all new generation A/C are expensive. Lets leave it at that. It has already been said in this thread. We hand over these birds to PILOTS, it is there duty to defend themselves and their respective Countries to the best of their Abilities. It is Pilot Abilities that is the factor with next generation A/C. It has always been that way. Listen to what real PILOTS have to say. I talked to 2 Typhoon Pilots and if you talk to 2 Raptor pilots I am sure you will hear the same thing. Every pilot has to believes his A/C is the best and rightly so, you have to have the confidence that the A/C you are in can get the job done. Some will do it one way and others another how the pilot reacts to his inputs is what will tell the tail. PILOTS people they are the Key ingredient in all of this. We can only speculate. Please guy's lets not go down the road of Politics and Economy, this is a thread for us to post our opinions on new generation A/C lets stick to it. Thanks!!!

[rattler]

new signature, hope this one is ok with moderator. New signature upload please Mr. Moderator.

[Gaizokubanou]

Discussing military without politics is... umm...

[hitman]

Discussing military without politics is... umm...

 

The smart thing to do? Ingenius? No military personnel like politics, period. Thats why there are officers in the military. Only officers are allowed to foray into politics. The grunts dont care just as long as they get paid (except for some soldiers I know of that enlist and puss out the first year).

[Gaizokubanou]

The smart thing to do? Ingenius? No military personnel like politics, period. Thats why there are officers in the military. Only officers are allowed to foray into politics. The grunts dont care just as long as they get paid (except for some soldiers I know of that enlist and puss out the first year).

 

Last time I checked, construction/planning of F22 was not done by grunts :music_whistling:

 

To disregard cost efficiency is just unrealistic. Things cost money, resources and peoplepower in real life, so I don't see a problem with considering those aspects. Otherwise we would all be stupid for not driving the most expensive ferrari and not owning our personal jets.

 

I still love you though :D

[hitman]

Last time I checked, construction/planning of F22 was not done by grunts :music_whistling:

 

Last time I checked, no politician was involved in the engineering of the F-22...last place youll see any senator or politician is at work. Yeah I guess he can say "i want it cheap and I want it hard like that", but thats about the only input youll ever get from a congressman.

[Rhen]

Yeah, Rhen, I have to agree: the hard facts of life are that the USAF already has the F-22, while I'm still driving my Opel Astra. Bummer :(

 

You think too small, man! I'd go for the Aston Martin Vanquish - now that's a car!:thumbup:

[suntrace1]

Last time I checked, no politician was involved in the engineering of the F-22...last place youll see any senator or politician is at work. Yeah I guess he can say "i want it cheap and I want it hard like that", but thats about the only input youll ever get from a congressman.

 

I would very much disagree - every congressman and senator is very keen on getting the contract for such a large and expensive project as F-22 is, for their region. With the money from the project, they open new jobs or sustain the old ones for a number of years. That's how they get the money into their communities and in return, they get re-elected.

 

This was very well sumarized in BBC's ''What do we fight for'' documentary.

[Rhen]

BTW, there seems to be some bean-counting discussion also beyond these boards. I found this contribition by a nice-looking young lady that could be my next bookkeeper:

 

http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/stories/0815edtalmadge.html

 

(She will incur the wrath of Rhen, though. Rhen, always be polite with ladies!)

 

 

With all due respect to the nice blonde lady, and i'm sure she's well-versed in her MIT education, but IRL she knows not what she's talking about.

 

We know all the way back to Vietnam that SAMs tend to/will be able to down more aircraft than air-to-air engagements. However, when you fly in someone elses back yard, you can't always bring all your SAMS with you in a high-intensity rapidly evolving conflict. This means that we'd suffer greater aircraft losses from their air defense system and they'd suffer greater losses NOT from our air defense system, but from our fighter aircraft. Such are the consequences of fighting in someone elses well-defended sandbox.

 

How do we counter this threat? By leveraging technology to get the first look, first shot, to rapidly strike, and exit the area. That's the Raptor.

 

Her other argument that may hold credence is that "fighters need bases relatively close to the conflict." Again, wrong. With refueling - and I hate to fly these types of missions, we can fly longer missions. The only thing that prevents this is crew rest and the number of missiles that can be carried. I've flown from Kadena AB Japan, to RAAF Tindal, Australia - non-stop (about 3000miles/4900km), then fought an aerial engagement and then recovered the jet. It sucks, but it can be done. Besides, that's what we have the navy for anyway.:smilewink:

[Rhen]

For those of you that still want to talk politics in this thread, I ask you to please refrain so that this thread can continue as a discussion of the F-22, its mission, capabilities, and comparative effectiveness against other aircraft of similar mission design. Please leave the politics of any country out of it, as the rules of this forum are specific about this.

 

Thanks!