F-22 Raptor "sucks"

[Pyroflash]

So make Raptor pilots wear Blackbird space suits and you've solved the "Raptor problem"...

 

Except this could be problematic when it comes to fighting with the suit on. The helmet would be heavy and restrictive for one. Enough pilots already have problems with the new generation JHMCS helmets. They say that they are too heavy under high G loads, and restrict the field of vision too much. A lot of them would much rather wear the "monocle" HMS than the full on JHMCS helmet because of this and a slew of other different reasons. In addition, the "space suit" isn't a G-suit, and this has the potential of introducing additional problems.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Pyroflash

[tflash]

Raptor comes positively in the news with launch of SBD weapons:

 

http://www.afrc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123314409

[marcos]

Can carry 8 in total:

 

 

And soon to follow SDB II (GBU-53):

 

 

GBU-32?

 

Edited August 17, 2012 by marcos

[Bolt-1]

Raptor comes positively in the news with launch of SBD weapons:

S B D ?

silent but deadly !

 

:lol:

[marcos]

The GBU-53 is supposed to have the same diameter as the GBU-39 but it looks to be far wider.

[tflash]

The hypoxia problem seems definitely solved; here an article with most detailed explanation to date: http://www.ktuu.com/news/ktuu-air-force-says-f22-oxygen-problem-is-solved-20120923,0,965744.story

[marcos]

So it would seem that the problem wasn't actually with the plane at all.

[ralfidude]

The thing that irks me, is that ground crews who worked on the F22s daily were also experiencing hypoxia like symptoms.

 

 

I doubt they fixed the issue, at least one of many.

[wilky510]

The thing that irks me, is that ground crews who worked on the F22s daily were also experiencing hypoxia like symptoms.

 

 

I doubt they fixed the issue, at least one of many.

I thought they tested for contaminants in the oxygen system that could be from outside sources, ie: stealth coatings? I can't really see anything else really affecting the ground crew. Meh, who knows.

[Maximus_G]

Raptor comes positively in the news with launch of SBD weapons

Ahh SBD...

[NewSchool]

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/02/stealth-pilots-coughing/

[Invader ZIM]

Seems more like we're reaching the limits of human physiology, aside from designing a new encapsulated breathable air cockpit like a space capable plane might have, there is a reason the air mixture is what it is for the F-22.

[Mandrake5]

Seems more like we're reaching the limits of human physiology, aside from designing a new encapsulated breathable air cockpit like a space capable plane might have, there is a reason the air mixture is what it is for the F-22.

 

So 6th gen = fighter drones, or are we not there yet?

[Invader ZIM]

We're definately heading for fighter drone aircraft

 

X-45 and X-47 programs seem to have been revived again and work is continuing in that area, it's a idea that's too attractive to die off.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Invader ZIM

[Maior]

So 6th gen = fighter drones, or are we not there yet?

 

Well, I advise people to watch CBS' NOVA episode on Drones. UAVs are already used throughout the world. More or less advanced but they are doing it. The advantages are obvious. They still cannot be fully autonomous though. They are 3x more likely to crash than a human pilot simply due to situations where the computer didn't learn how to counter. The advantages are in G forces, smaller size and, cost. Cost especially is one of the driving forces since a relatively cheap platform can be devastating.

Heck, an electric powered drone in the 3Kg class costs $300. You incorporate a 3G board on it to triangulate with cellphone towers and have precise positioning. Fill it with Anthrax and send it on a mission over an enemy base at night. You cannot detect it with RADAR, can hardly see it and by the time it opened it's bays, puff. You're done. One got intercepted? spend another $300 and get another one. Better yet, spend $3,000,000 and get 1,000 of them. Send them all at once only need one to go through.

[Invader ZIM]

As Maior says, but look at the recent aviation news thread where the U.S. is putting different decoy and jammer systems on the cheap drones, so now you have drones jamming enemy communications and radar for instance, and stealthy aircraft like the F-22 and JSF that can come in through the confusion to add to the pain.

 

Like I said, it's just too attractive an option to let go, I think marcos posted about the new U.S. bomber and one of the reqirements was optional piloted or unmanned operation.

[Maior]

And let's not forget the now serving TerraMax (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9ggv4I4q6g) This truck can literally drive itself. Heaviest drone around. The US are also developing cheap underwater drones with passive SONAR to create a submarine detection grid. Submarine technology has become mainstream apparently and a nation can cheaply a fleet of small diesel-electric subs which are very hard to detect underwater. These Drones will create an acoustic grid to give increased chance to detect submarines.

[MaverickF22]

...Although I would disagree killing the Eurofighter would be as easy as the author says.

 

Why would you...?

 

1. Can the Eurofighter reach the Raptor's high pitch rates (due to TV), helping it change direction much quicker and be a harder target to follow in close combat?

 

2. Can the EF reach the Raptor's instantaneous turn rates and it's smaller turning circles (both in horizontal (where the gravity is an enemy) and vertical plane)?

 

3. Can the EF see the Raptor before it fired?

 

The answer is: NOT!

 

 

Even if the EF might have only a slight advantage in acceleration (if both were A-A role loaded) over the Raptor (if it really weighs 20 tons empty for some unknown reason:P, otherwise it's even better), it still is worse than the raptor in both instantaneous turn rates and constant turn rates (virtually at every speed), because the overall drag at a given angle of attack (from where the lift coefficient derives) of the Eurofighter would be much higher than it's engines can hold (for short, a worse T/D (thrust/drag) ratio), compared to the F-22's T/D, which enables the Raptor to also bleed less energy in a turn. As for those who don't know already (aerodynamics knowledge), the draggiest wing ever to fly, is the delta wing (or to say the least, a high sweep angled wing, with a low wing aspect ratio), which is found on the MIG-21, Eurofighter, Mirage, etc.

 

The double delta wing (which equips the Raptor and which is similar to what the F-23 program had) has the advantage of a further increased, capable angle of attack, and a slightly better lift slope in relation with these angles, than the delta wing has! Another key aspect why the F-22 would out turn the EF, is that the 22 uses it's elevators in the same way as the wings (to provide positive lift), possibly also combined with the TV nozzles pointed downwards a bit (to give a force component in the same direction with the lift) in order to balance the high (intentional) pitch instability, as the aircraft turns, thus providing the most lift force ever possible out of the whole aircraft. Because the EF has canards, it could be better turning capable if it were a more nose heavy aircraft (the same weight of the plane, being shifted forward making it more stable and opposite to the Raptor), in order to help provide the most lift possible..., but in fact, the EF's canards only provide stability (so they won't create lift almost at all) and some better airflow (more attached) for the wings, thus eliminating this potential.

 

 

Now i'm not some F-22 Raptor fanboy (although i like it's shape), even if i have it as an avatar picture..., but the fact is that i like the best (BVR and ACM), and i have my reasons for it! Even if it's the most expensive fighter on the planet (~160 million dollars now, not 370 as someone said)..., i can bet that it's price will have a comparable outcome..., now it isn't that expensive for no reason, and don't tell me that a much much cheaper T-50 (PAK-FA) does the same thing as the Raptor, for that price!

 

 

Now i have this habit of getting into details and talk a lot more than the point:doh:..., but what i know, i know..., unless of course..., someone can provide a more realistic proof and contradict me!:pilotfly:

 

 

Good day!

[GGTharos]

You're calling the stuff you posted proof? :D

 

Now i have this habit of getting into details and talk a lot more than the point:doh:..., but what i know, i know..., unless of course..., someone can provide a more realistic proof and contradict me!:pilotfly:

[FeoFUN]

Even if it's the most expensive fighter on the planet (~160 million dollars now, not 370 as someone said)

160 millions is a flyaway cost. The cumulative cost of the ATF programme is around of 300 millions per plane.

 

don't tell me that a much muchT-50 (PAK-FA) does the same thing as the Raptor, for that price!

Actually, in some aspects - it does even more, since 20 years has passed between the Raptor and PAK FA. For example, because of advancements in the electronics and the heterogeneous structures for the last 20 years, which made AESA transmitters much cheaper - PAK FA is equipped with the lateral AESA arrays from the beginning. Same thing with the EODAS analogue on PAK FA - 101 KS-U, that Raptor doesn't have. And finally, same goes for the computer simulations and CAD - computing capacity and capabilities rose up by more than 1000 times for those 20 years, gave incredible new opportunities to developers of PAK FA and save a lot of money.

 

So, the main question is lying in the quantities - and this is the most difficult question for the Russia, because the serial production fully depends on the money.

[countto10]

Question on stealth (seems like as good a place to ask it as any). If you can detect the direction a radar transmission is coming from then, regardless of frequency, can you use two passive detectors on separate aircraft or wing tips to triangulate the origin and then use radar in a very narrow search field to lock the target in that area or maybe cue a missile just from passive detection, with an IR seeker for the terminal approach?

[GGTharos]

Maybe. Don't think stealth = 'radar only'. The whole idea behind stealth is to make your aircraft difficult to shoot at. That includes shortening ranges of RF and IR sensors, so missile seekers have shorter range against these aircraft as well - as a result you have to put them near the target with a lot more accuracy.

 

Radar lock is typically shorter ranged than radar detection, so cuing your radar from passive sensors would be moot. Shooting IR missiles from passive like that is also moot if you can't get a good enough accuracy on the target's position.

 

Question on stealth (seems like as good a place to ask it as any). If you can detect the direction a radar transmission is coming from then, regardless of frequency, can you use two passive detectors on separate aircraft or wing tips to triangulate the origin and then use radar in a very narrow search field to lock the target in that area or maybe cue a missile just from passive detection, with an IR seeker for the terminal approach?

[104th_Maverick]

Now i'm not some F-22 Raptor fanboy

 

Lol says the guy called 'MaverickF22' with the picture in his avatar.......

 

Yes mate... you are an official Fanboy! ;)

 

I'm afraid you've been reading too much promotional material for the F-22... WVR the Typhoon will EAT your little Raptor for breakfast.

 

You are just taking wild stabs in the dark with regards to the Typhoon performance.. I don't think you have done your home work at all!

 

''but in fact, the EF's canards only provide stability (so they won't create lift almost at all)''

 

This is total nonsense, the canard 'naturally' produces lift to balance the lift coming off the wings, the faster the aircraft is going the higher this lift value becomes.

 

Here is a tip.... listen to GG and others....

 

Yes they have proof you are wrong.... no they won't show it to you ;)

[GGTharos]

Actually they come out about even in 'fair' guns only, which is quite a feat for the F-22 if you consider that it weighs as much as a loaded EF when the F-22 is empty.

 

The EF does currently have some advantages in the heat-to-guns arena, namely the F-22 does not yet have JHMCS, and AIM-9X mod2, but they're coming.

 

;1875340']I'm afraid you've been reading too much promotional material for the F-22... WVR the Typhoon will EAT your little Raptor for breakfast.

[xxJohnxx]

I like how the F22 beats the Rafele's ass in this video, oh wait...