AI Fired AIM-120 - Very slow to pitbull leaving very small warning

[JazonXD]

So I've noticed that the AIM-120s fired by AIs pitbull very very late, to be more specific, about 6 miles instead of 10 miles that you would find on player fired AIM-120s. I've made a quick video about it and also have one extreme case of this situation.

 

I am not sure if this is a bug or intended. Enjoy.

 

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[FLANKERATOR]

No sure about the F-15 but in the case of the Su-27, you banked past the SPO-15 detection limit, which is, IIRC, 30 deg.

[JazonXD]

No sure about the F-15 but in the case of the Su-27, you banked past the SPO-15 detection limit, which is, IIRC, 30 deg.

 

Right, it was an extreme example of this scenario, but either way, even in the 27, I'll receive the missile launch warning when the missile is already 6 miles aways from me.

[Bushmanni]

Player fired AIM-120s also pitbull at 6 NM.

[Ktulu2]

While it doesn't solve the problem, It's a good idea not to rely on the warning to defend, will save you many lives.

[Shadow KT]

Isn't the pitbull thing , because he fires from a range greater than pitbull, and from that range the missile has a timing in which it will go pitbull, and because you are going straight towards it (closing in on it), by the time the missile timer goes down to pitbull you are already at 6nm. If you put him at 10 miles @ 20K I am pretty sure the missile will go pitbull right away

[Bushmanni]

I'm not sure if there's some cheating going on with the player Pitbull timer but anyways you wont get RWR indication of player launched AIM-120 until it's 6 NM away. DLZ and missile impact timer aren't very accurate so I would think that Pitbull timer isn't accurate either but as long as you time out the Pitbull timer your missile will find it's target.

[TAW_Blaze]

No idea what u guys smoked but I want some of that too. Pitbull range has been 8 nm for all eternity.

[Bushmanni]

I just checked Pitbull ranges agains AI. Pitbull timer times out when missile is 10 NM away from target but you will get RWR warning from Slammer fired by AI only about 6 NM away earliest. I dumped chaff when pitbull timer timed out and then measured the distance to target with Tacview. Farthest RWR warning distance I managed to measure was 6.2 NM away using the above method but now dumping chaff when RWR gave the warning. The warning is clearly lagging behind as if you stop maneuvering and point your wings at the missile when it's 7 NM away you get the warning only about 4-5 NM away.

 

Maybe there's bug or maybe F-15 RWR has issues recognizing missile radars and giving immediate warnings?

[Stuge]

I want to reinforce Bushmanni's view that the "normal" pitbull range is 6 nautical miles. This works quite reliably at low altitudes as a cue to go evasive - there is enough time to escape or beam.

 

However at higher altitudes things sometimes get funky, sometimes the RWR gives as little as 1 second warning before impact. Nevertheless, tactically this is insignificant since at medium-high altitudes one absolutely must anticipate incoming launches before warning, or get hit anyway!

[FLANKERATOR]

Plus, RWR may well get the active homing signal before 6nm but needs time to process it, hence the small lag in giving the warning sound. No hard fact to prove it but I've come across litterature backing this matter before and purposely or not, it could well be in game implemented.

 

Another limitation to how RWR works, aside from the 30degree limit when banked, is the behaviour at high altitudes or rather when the launcher/target difference in altitude is too great. In these cases, rwr gives very late to no warning because of the steep approach of the missile and I think the same principle applies here, I.e, signal gets outside of the rwr's detection cone. Lofting the missile is another contributing factor.

[Stuge]

Being outside of RWR cone doesn't explain all the cases of being "instakilled" at high altitude :)

[Breakshot]

Being outside of RWR cone doesn't explain all the cases of being "instakilled" at high altitude :)

 

Netcode and pingtime does. Especially on the angle limits of RWR. This has been the story since LOMAC 1.02

 

Remember, the launching platfrom records the impact for kill (ranges and angles can sometimes be affected by server delays on the receiving end).

 

We have seen cases where it looked like the missile passed by missing the receiving target (visual), only to be "killed" a sec or two later...

 

Rule of thumb, react at least 3 seconds earlier than in SP. Example: if you can orthogonal roll an Aim 120 from say 2 bars from full on SPO. You have to start the maneuver at 3 bars from full in MP. <-=== though doing this in NEZ is a bad idea anyway, unless you like broken wings. LOL

Edited July 14, 2016 by Breakshot

[Bushmanni]

I just did some more measurements in MP. When firing head on at each other around 18k feet from about 13 NM distance and then flying straight into the opponents missile we got launch warnings 4.0 NM and 3.7 NM distance. Both planes got warning 8 seconds after the missile went Pitbull. So you can get warning earlier (with respect to distance to missile) if you have less closure like when beaming (what I did to get the 6.2 NM warning distance).

 

What would cause such a long delay in missile warning? The delay is the same in SP and MP so it's not because of netcode. From what I read about F-15 TEWS it can analyze radar signals pulse by pulse, measuring all the relevant parameters (pulse width, power, frequency, direction) and recognize pulse interval patterns (not just PRF). It doesn't take long for the TEWS to figure out a signal when it's given one, at least not 8 seconds. Only if the waveform would use some kind of LPI methods would there be problems recognizing the signal but AFAIK AIM-120 doesn't use LPI radar.

[Stuge]

Very nice Bushmanni, just what i was suspecting.. higher closure means less warning range.

[winchesterdelta1]

they figured it out. :(

Edited July 20, 2016 by BIGNEWY
1.1 profanity

[JazonXD]

From my observations, when I am in an F15 and I fire a 120, the missile pitbull timer is basically exactly synced to how long it will take for the missile to reach 10 miles away from the target. When I play against AI, once this timer on my plane counts down and finishes, the AI plane goes defensive immediately. If I launch at about 13 miles, then the pitbull timer on my plane will say for example, 6 seconds. After 6 seconds, the missile is about 10 miles away from target. In MP, I notice similar behaviours, as soon as the pitbull timer finishes on my HUD, the target will go defensively very quickly (accounting for reaction time). So from what I've seen, player fired 120s seem to be consistently pitbulling at about 10 miles. I didn't test this with a friend in multiplayer yet but this is what I have noticed over the years playing DCS. It doesn't matter about aspect, as soon as the missile reaches within 10 miles of the target, it pitbulls (at least accordinging to my HUD) and the targets react accordingly.