Su-27 vs F-15C

[Bushmanni]

I always felt that lead turning too early is the equivalent of dropping the soap in prison... if you get lucky the guy behind you doesn't take advantage :)

 

That's my thinking also. But from my experiments if you can judge the bandits turn circle correctly a no-respect lead turn seems pretty safe as the bandit will overshoot you as he has too much speed (or a plane that can't turn) and has no other option to get his nose on you but to first create separation. I haven't tested yet if the no-respect lead turn would expose you to enemy weapons before merge more than waiting until merge.

[Stuge]

That's my thinking also. But from my experiments if you can judge the bandits turn circle correctly a no-respect lead turn seems pretty safe as the bandit will overshoot you as he has too much speed (or a plane that can't turn) and has no other option to get his nose on you but to first create separation. I haven't tested yet if the no-respect lead turn would expose you to enemy weapons before merge more than waiting until merge.

 

Hmm now that I bounced this off you...it could be a useful move against a fast(600+ kts) bandit going for energy. But maybe horizontally initially... to regain quick tally against the pretty sky...yes...good...good...also I guess you're right it could work against a "regular" bandit but you would still need to be somewhat slower than him, interesting geometry yes :)

Edited August 28, 2016 by Stuge

[DarkFire]

I think so' date=' but my BFM imagining skills are a bit shady after over half a year of not flying. :D It probably depends on airspeeds and the setup of the 2nd merge.[/quote']

 

Probably would. Maybe higher airspeed at the second merge would tend to produce a rolling scissors which, unless one fighter gains a position advantage would eventually turn in to...

 

Flanker is better at rolling scissors, Eagle's crazy roll doesn't save it ;)

 

The two oblique turns are likely to develop into a descending spiral, ending up in a two-circle fight on the deck. Whoever makes a better deck transition (reaching optimal airspeed by the time there's no room to descend anymore) will gain advantage.

 

A descending spiral as airspeed bleeds off in the turns. By deck transition, I take it both fighters would be looking for corner speed for the 2C fight? Wouldn't that automatically put the Eagle at a disadvantage? I'm by no means an expert on the F-15, but isn't it's corner velocity in the region of say 420Kts or upwards, depending on weight? Whereas the Flanker will turn well down to, at a stretch, 600Km/h which is only 350Kts so the Eagle driver, unless they want to risk an overshoot which would be fatal, isn't going to be at corner velocity...?

 

As an aside, one of the things I love about (virtual) air combat is that there is seldom a rock / paper / scissors approach to any situation. As the zen master says, "it depends..." :)

[Stuge]

A descending spiral as airspeed bleeds off in the turns. By deck transition, I take it both fighters would be looking for corner speed for the 2C fight? Wouldn't that automatically put the Eagle at a disadvantage?

Not automatically, Eagle has superior thrust so it can perform a good deck transition. And remember what I said, a very light Eagle will outperform a very light Flanker in a sustained turn on the deck!

 

Deck transition is about letting the plane accelerate to a nice speed for sustained turn before reaching the deck. This is achieved by a combo of diving steeper and loosening the stick pull slightly.

 

For Eagle this is the corner speed that varies greatly depending on weight, roughly 350-500 kts. As the fight prolongs, fuel burns, or maybe you are dumping the fuel, and you get lighter, you will notice the corner speed starts to decrease as you are unable to maintain the current speed without either blacking out or accelerating - this is a cue to pull the stick sharply(as opposed to cutting throttle which wastes energy) to decrease your speed a little and find the correct corner speed "balance" where you are pulling 7-8 G(there are beeping sound cues for this from the cockpit) and your airspeed stays constant.

 

For the Flanker is the region of 600-800 km/h, and interestingly whether you fly 600 km/h or 800 km/h doesn't seem to have much of an impact on the sustained turn performance. Having that 200 km/h extra just gives you a little more leverage energywise.

 

Not sure about what you meant by the overshooting part.. there's no overshoots involved in two-circle fights, at least not until one guy gets on the other's six.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Stuge

[TAW_Blaze]

Not automatically, Eagle has superior thrust so it can perform a good deck transition. And remember what I said, a very light Eagle will outperform a very light Flanker in a sustained turn on the deck!

 

Deck transition is about letting the plane accelerate to a nice speed for sustained turn before reaching the deck. This is achieved by a combo of diving steeper and loosening the stick pull slightly.

 

For Eagle this is the corner speed that varies greatly depending on weight, roughly 350-500 kts. As the fight prolongs, fuel burns, or maybe you are dumping the fuel, and you get lighter, you will notice the corner speed starts to decrease as you are unable to maintain the current speed without either blacking out or accelerating - this is a cue to pull the stick sharply(as opposed to cutting throttle which wastes energy) to decrease your speed a little and find the correct corner speed "balance" where you are pulling 7-8 G(there are beeping sound cues for this from the cockpit) and your airspeed stays constant.

 

For the Flanker is the region of 600-800 km/h, and interestingly whether you fly 600 km/h or 800 km/h doesn't seem to have much of an impact on the sustained turn performance. Having that 200 km/h extra just gives you a little more leverage energywise.

 

Not sure about what you meant by the overshooting part.. there's no overshoots involved in two-circle fights, at least not until one guy gets on the other's six.

 

What about adding vertical instead of yanking the stick? For me usually when I ended up in that situation I would've GLOC'd if I started pulling harder so I'd either drop burners or just add some vertical to it.

[Stuge]

You're right Blaze you can also add a little vertical component to your turn to bleed speed and it is a good way also :) but for a minimal speed excess a yank on the stick is enough.

[DarkFire]

Not sure about what you meant by the overshooting part.. there's no overshoots involved in two-circle fights, at least not until one guy gets on the other's six.

 

Hmm I should have explained that better. I was imagining the two aircraft sprialling down, both pilots wanting to level off at corner velocity. I imagined and Eagle driver being 'forced' to accelerate to level off at ~450 - 500Kts whereas the Flanker pilot would be happy to level off at a lower 400 - 450Kts, thus forcing the Eagle pilot to overshoot the Flanker by, at or soon after pull up to level flight at the bottom of the spiral.

 

But why would anyone do that? It would be suicide for the Eagle pilot. Plus, as you say, after turning & burning the Eagle is likely to have lower fuel than at the first merge so the corner velocity would be under 500Kts anyway.

 

I was thinking out loud a little bit :)

[FLANKERATOR]

I hate those down spirals, I know I have to float as long as possible because the first one hitting the deck will be running away like a rabbit - Im wondering if there is any escape window before its too late once you found yourself spiraling down with the bad guy? I assume one had to avoid getting into it in the first place...but sometimes greed/fear makes you take stupid decisions. Similar a bit to flat scissors but in this case, I know going vertical is a good answer instead of idling and hitting the breaks.

[Stuge]

Hmm I should have explained that better. I was imagining the two aircraft sprialling down, both pilots wanting to level off at corner velocity. I imagined and Eagle driver being 'forced' to accelerate to level off at ~450 - 500Kts whereas the Flanker pilot would be happy to level off at a lower 400 - 450Kts, thus forcing the Eagle pilot to overshoot the Flanker by, at or soon after pull up to level flight at the bottom of the spiral.

 

But why would anyone do that? It would be suicide for the Eagle pilot. Plus, as you say, after turning & burning the Eagle is likely to have lower fuel than at the first merge so the corner velocity would be under 500Kts anyway.

 

I was thinking out loud a little bit :)

Perhaps what you mean is an overshoot in the vertical axis..? This is possible if the spiral is very tight and steep with extremely low airspeeds. In this case one can force a vertical overshoot by "floating", as Flankerator said, meaning trying to slow down your descent rate without sacrificing your turn rate too much. Thinking about deck transition is not very relevant here, forcing an overshoot is the thing to do , and obviously you will overshoot yourself if you attempt to accelerate when flying steeply downhill. I heard someone draw a line of approximately 30 degrees steep speed vector - if your descent angle is more than 30 degrees downhill then overshooting becomes an issue. The situation in practice does not allow for a proper deck transition. Once the ground has been reached and the pilots are forced to pull up before crashing, they will both be slow. Here they will have to try and very slowly accerate to get a better turn rate, while taking care they don't let up the turn too much as this could expose one to weapons fire.

 

The spiral I was referring to I meant a pretty wide and shallow-descending one, with somewhat faster airspeeds, perhaps around 300 kts, but still below corner speed since corner speed is too fast for a descending turn. Here the deck transition is wise to make since the descent rate is shallow and the separation between airplanes is large - thus in practice no overshoot of any kind can happen, and the pilots can accelerate freely to optimal speed by the time they reach the ground, as long as the fight is relatively neutral (neither has a decisive angles advantage which would allow instant weapon use by the pilot who does not accelerate but instead bleeds airspeed to turn the nose for a kill shot)

 

Of course these two spiral types are "black-and-white" -type extremities, and in reality the situation could be any shade between these two, changing dynamically with time... it is actually a vertical descending rolling scissors situation... with a big wall that is the ground or sea to stop it at some point :)

Edited August 28, 2016 by Stuge

[DarkFire]

Perhaps what you mean is an overshoot in the vertical axis..? This is possible if the spiral is very tight and steep with extremely low airspeeds. In this case one can force a vertical overshoot by "floating", as Flankerator said, meaning trying to slow down your descent rate without sacrificing your turn rate too much. Thinking about deck transition is not very relevant here, forcing an overshoot is the thing to do , and obviously you will overshoot yourself if you attempt to accelerate when flying steeply downhill. I heard someone draw a line of approximately 30 degrees steep speed vector - if your descent angle is more than 30 degrees downhill then overshooting becomes an issue. The situation in practice does not allow for a proper deck transition. Once the ground has been reached and the pilots are forced to pull up before crashing, they will both be slow. Here they will have to try and very slowly accerate to get a better turn rate, while taking care they don't let up the turn too much as this could expose one to weapons fire.

 

Yes, that's a much better description for what I was thinking. The way I imagined it, vertical overshoot is exactly it :)

[FLANKERATOR]

Here is an example of both aircraft spiraling down to the deck.

Its a 4 year old video back from maiden Top Gun championship (FC2) but principles are more or less the same.

 

Watch Round 2 starting at 4mn and spiraling kicks off at 6:10

 

What is also standing out in my opinion is the great patience of both guys gentle with the stick and never getting to greedy even when the target was an inch away from the pipper, also the fight went pure nose-to-tail...

 

[DarkFire]

I hate those down spirals, I know I have to float as long as possible because the first one hitting the deck will be running away like a rabbit - Im wondering if there is any escape window before its too late once you found yourself spiraling down with the bad guy? I assume one had to avoid getting into it in the first place...but sometimes greed/fear makes you take stupid decisions. Similar a bit to flat scissors but in this case, I know going vertical is a good answer instead of idling and hitting the breaks.

 

I think having an escape window would depend on the SA of the bandit. If they're watching you constantly then escape by simply turning out (or up?) of the spiral is unlikely to work as they could simply turn out after you and you'd likely still be easily within missile or even gun range. If however the bandit isn't being all that observant then yes I would imagine that would work.

 

Don't know. Maybe if it was timed very carefully it would be possible to turn out of the spiral while being just outside of the bandit's view angle. This would probably be more likely to succeed against fighters with poor cockpit views e.g. the MiG-21, or against bandits who have less experience and who are therefore constantly glancing at their HUD to check airspeed, AOA etc.

[TAW_Blaze]

Flanker that was an insane clip, thanks.

 

I think having an escape window would depend on the SA of the bandit. If they're watching you constantly then escape by simply turning out (or up?) of the spiral is unlikely to work as they could simply turn out after you and you'd likely still be easily within missile or even gun range. If however the bandit isn't being all that observant then yes I would imagine that would work.

 

Don't know. Maybe if it was timed very carefully it would be possible to turn out of the spiral while being just outside of the bandit's view angle. This would probably be more likely to succeed against fighters with poor cockpit views e.g. the MiG-21, or against bandits who have less experience and who are therefore constantly glancing at their HUD to check airspeed, AOA etc.

 

I don't think so, in a spiral like this if you get out of it the other guy will be more or less immediately behind you. I can't comprehend how anyone could consider the opponent not being fully focused on him in a scenario like this. Your best shot is to go through with it and try to set up an optimal exit plan. Maybe he will have a worse one or screw up or you can help him end up in a bad one but whoever gets the advantage on the exit will usually win.

[Higgeh]

Here is an example of both aircraft spiraling down to the deck.

Its a 4 year old video back from maiden Top Gun championship (FC2) but principles are more or less the same.

 

Watch Round 2 starting at 4mn and spiraling kicks off at 6:10

 

What is also standing out in my opinion is the great patience of both guys gentle with the stick and never getting to greedy even when the target was an inch away from the pipper, also the fight went pure nose-to-tail...

 

 

And that is why I wouldn't go near a flanker with an eagle lol; that slow speed rate is scary.

 

I always prefer to slice my turn slightly under their plane for better rate. There will be some slight vertical separation but they would have to go very nose low to use it. If both pilots try this then the fight very quickly descends into a tighter roller where relative speed is everything, so you need to be ready to adjust to that changing flow.

 

Also, I'm one of those madmen who like to try and roll underneath with a sort of split s just above the deck if I'm defensive like in the video at 7:21. I prefer my odds in the resulting roller. Sure he may get a snapshot but it will be far riskier than the shot he gets at 8:40. There is also a good chance they will overshoot my flight path into the deck if they pull too much lead. :P

[Stuge]

Nice vid Flank, I think I've seen before yeah...

 

Back in the days of the old flight model ("standard flight model") the Su-27 was extremely stable at slow speed + high angle of attack like in the vid. Consequently, these long spirals did occur quite frequently. The best ones came from contrail altitudes all the way down to the deck :)

 

Supermutt's deck transition, even if it didn't involve accelerating, seemed smoother somehow and Zerol lost valuable angles there, I think the outcome was decided after that. It's hard to come back from such a big angles disadvantage and psychological pressure also plays a part here, you "give up" subconsciously, even if you don't want to, and that's it.

 

With the new flight model these spirals don't occur so much anymore because you can do funky things with direct control that break the "balance" of the spiral.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Stuge

[SinusoidDelta]

Just wanted to share this RL video of an F-15A doing ACM. There is some commentary from the eagle driver as well.

[FLANKERATOR]

Nice vid Flank, I think I've seen before yeah...

 

Back in the days of the old flight model ("standard flight model") the Su-27 was extremely stable at slow speed + high angle of attack like in the vid. Consequently, these long spirals did occur quite frequently. The best ones came from contrail altitudes all the way down to the deck :)

 

Supermutt's deck transition, even if it didn't involve accelerating, seemed smoother somehow and Zerol lost valuable angles there, I think the outcome was decided after that. It's hard to come back from such a big angles disadvantage and psychological pressure also plays a part here, you "give up" subconsciously, even if you don't want to, and that's it.

 

With the new flight model these spirals don't occur so much anymore because you can do funky things with direct control that break the "balance" of the spiral.

 

I think one must realize when the turning fight is lost and hit the burners to build separation...of course easy to say than to do...don't you think Zerol could of exited that spiral earlier before it got too late...he could of maybe extended a mile away or so by accelerating first then sliced back into his opponent to reset the fight...SuperMutt would of given chase of course but he would of gotten delayed a bit by having to exit the spiral after Zerol...I think it depends on how much separation one can create with that extension and the high turn performance that must ensue to reset the angles before the opponent catches up...not to mention the cost on fuel with such a defensive move.

 

One could also just knock it off and not re-engage after extending away or look for a wingman to save his butt...as they say 'live to fight another day' (not possible in that fight anyway as rtb was forbidden)

[DarkFire]

Here is an example of both aircraft spiraling down to the deck.

Its a 4 year old video back from maiden Top Gun championship (FC2) but principles are more or less the same.

 

Watch Round 2 starting at 4mn and spiraling kicks off at 6:10

 

What is also standing out in my opinion is the great patience of both guys gentle with the stick and never getting to greedy even when the target was an inch away from the pipper, also the fight went pure nose-to-tail...

 

Very impressive patience shown by both pilots. I really though that SuperMutt was going to run out of fuel by the end of round 2, that came right down to the wire.

 

I don't think so' date=' in a spiral like this if you get out of it the other guy will be more or less immediately behind you. I can't comprehend how anyone could consider the opponent not being fully focused on him in a scenario like this. Your best shot is to go through with it and try to set up an optimal exit plan. Maybe he will have a worse one or screw up or you can help him end up in a bad one but whoever gets the advantage on the exit will usually win.[/quote']

 

Agreed. Losing sight of the bandit, even for a few seconds, would be defeat in that sort of situation, even more so against a competent opponent.

 

 

Just wanted to share this RL video of an F-15A doing ACM. There is some commentary from the eagle driver as well.

 

Great piece of footage. Shame it didn't go on for longer. I wonder if the entire video is on youtube somewhere.

 

 

I think one must realize when the turning fight is lost and hit the burners to build separation...of course easy to say than to do...don't you think Zerol could of exited that spiral earlier before it got too late...he could of maybe extended a mile away or so by accelerating first then sliced back into his opponent to reset the fight...SuperMutt would of given chase of course but he would of gotten delayed a bit by having to exit the spiral after Zerol...I think it depends on how much separation one can create with that extension and the high turn performance that must ensue to reset the angles before the opponent catches up...not to mention the cost on fuel with such a defensive move.

 

One could also just knock it off and not re-engage after extending away or look for a wingman to save his butt...as they say 'live to fight another day' (not possible in that fight anyway as rtb was forbidden)

 

In a somewhat artificial guns-only tournament match? Possibly, though as you say with both of them on such low fuel...

 

In a normal PVP engagement? I think trying to break out would be very risky. Even with maximum possible separation the 'resetting' bandit would invite a chase missile shot. That sort of scenario sounds tailor made for an R-27ET shot.

Edited August 28, 2016 by DarkFire

[Stuge]

I think one must realize when the turning fight is lost and hit the burners to build separation...of course easy to say than to do...don't you think Zerol could of exited that spiral earlier before it got too late...he could of maybe extended a mile away or so by accelerating first then sliced back into his opponent to reset the fight...SuperMutt would of given chase of course but he would of gotten delayed a bit by having to exit the spiral after Zerol...I think it depends on how much separation one can create with that extension and the high turn performance that must ensue to reset the angles before the opponent catches up...not to mention the cost on fuel with such a defensive move.

 

One could also just knock it off and not re-engage after extending away or look for a wingman to save his butt...as they say 'live to fight another day' (not possible in that fight anyway as rtb was forbidden)

 

Two words: no escape :)

 

Flanker cannon was and still is laser accurate up to 1,5 km. I very much doubt one could disengage from such slow speeds and build enough separation.. and even if they could, the chaser is still in an advantageous position, closing distance with every single move the escapee is making, be it guns defense or random maneuvering. Resetting the fight is I would say impossible.

[Bushmanni]

Spiral fights (also rolling scissors) are pretty much impossible to escape as the bandit only needs about 90 degrees to turn to be in your tail. There's a way to gradually increase misalignment in the spiral axes so that you end up with nearly neutral merge and then escape is possible. You do this gradually by lowering your turn rate at one point to create little separation and then using the energy saved to turn harder to take back the angles you lost. Repeat this a few times and you have redefined the fight into flat scissors that you can escape. If you make too big maneuvers you most likely turn the geometry too flat and the bandit gets an opportunity to shoot at you. This maneuver is hard to pull off and if you screw it up you give the bandit a shot at you but it's the only (that I know of) way to disengage from spiral geometry.

[Cmptohocah]

I can tell you one thing: dog-fighting can be considered as a martial art. When it comes to which plane turns better and quicker, it is all useless if you come across an opponent who is good. Then it seems that even a Su-25T turns 10 times better than MiG-29.

[Stuge]

Yes, having strong Kung Fu is very important!

[FLANKERATOR]

The quality of the box matters little. Success depends upon the man who sits in it.

 

Manfred von Richthofen

[metzger]

Great discussion here :)

I m still begginer trying to practice engagement with the flanker. I find difficult beating f16 at excellent on BVR.

 

Usually we end up exchanging missiles and he is dodging mine like a black ninja :) and I eat high energy aim120 or aim9. I find AI easy on high but very hard on excellent. He always knows where I am and is able to point his nose towards me, like he has no respect to my missiles and they always miss even fired way within range with lead.

[FLANKERATOR]

I think AI doesn't need to find you on the radar, it simply knows where you are at all times ans will lock you up as soon as possible.

It also flies accurately but very predictably and you can use this to your advantage. Double tap, because it always tries to press and rarely extend away, usualy the second missile will hit if you fire within good parameters