TrackIR still worthwhile?

[Fakum]

well,, I may have spoiled myself with what Im running now, because if that is a reasonable expectation of what I will be looking at currently through VR,, I will be waiting in line for the next bus. That just seems horrible to me, just not very clear. Im not bashing, just commenting. I am very interested in VR, just not at that level. Hopefully a few more years will bring much better results?

[Goblin]

That just seems horrible to me, just not very clear. Im not bashing, just commenting.

 

That's perfectly ok! :)

To each his own, YMMV, etc...

I said so in my post, and others have said the same. Resolution is better on a LCD screen. Plain and simple. That's not what makes VR great.

Still, I got a 34" 3440x1440 curved LCD screen, that cost me more than my HMD, BTW. Sold it. Not interested! VR brings so much more to the table than a 2D screen that I will live happily with the resolution as it is. But that's me.

 

Hopefully a few more years will bring much better results?

 

Looks like VR HMDs are a hit. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the next generation HMDs will have twice the resolution.

 

I was going to wait for the Mk.II in HMD design, but that was before I actually tried a Oculus Rift CV1. ;)

[Astronut]

I waited for the CV1 even though I was closely following the Rift development from the start. I kind of regret not jumping on the DK2 back when it was first released.

 

I think it is a mistake to judge the current headsets just on raw specifications. My "approximated" screen shots really don't do the experience justice because, well, VR is so much more when it is brought to life in a sim.

 

I'm sure Goblin will agree with me when I say that short of a professional simulator, VR in it's present form is as close as you can get to the experience of being sat in a real cockpit without doing it for real. I train every 6 months in a Level D sim and in some areas my Rift feels more immersive (any situation where maneuvering is required such as unusual attitude recovery, stalls, circling approaches etc).

Edited September 19, 2016 by Astronut

[hansangb]

well,, I may have spoiled myself with what Im running now, because if that is a reasonable expectation of what I will be looking at currently through VR,, I will be waiting in line for the next bus. That just seems horrible to me, just not very clear. Im not bashing, just commenting. I am very interested in VR, just not at that level. Hopefully a few more years will bring much better results?

 

 

Fakum,

I get it. You like the 4K resolution and the crystal clear images. But the best example that I can think of is this: Would you rather drive a car with a joystick on your 4K resolution, or would you like to step into a real NASCAR/F1/Rally car and take it for a spin? The images you see are static. You're not looking in real time. It makes all the difference.

 

That's the level of difference when flying with triple monitor+ TIR and VR. You don't get the G-Force, but you get the sense of speed, you get the sense of height, you get the sense of movement. All of which is impossible with TrackIR.

 

It's just that significant. Within minutes, you totally forget about the lowres (compared to 4K) image.

 

My guess is, in a few years, we'll get foveated rendering. It turns out, our eyes are GARBAGE. We only get "HD vision" in a very narrow view. Everything else, the brain glosses over it to make it look HD. So if the eyeball tracking is fast enough, we can mimic the human eye and get even more of an awesome VR.

 

But as it is right now, there is *NO* going back for me. Like I said before, I'd rather not play DCS if I can't have my VR.

[SinusoidDelta]

well,, I may have spoiled myself with what Im running now, because if that is a reasonable expectation of what I will be looking at currently through VR,, I will be waiting in line for the next bus. That just seems horrible to me, just not very clear. Im not bashing, just commenting. I am very interested in VR, just not at that level. Hopefully a few more years will bring much better results?

 

I had the same opinion as you before trying the Rift. I wasn't about to give up on my 34" ultra wide with TrackIR. Eventually I had enough of hearing how incredible VR. Curiosity got the best of me and I bought a CV1 with the intent of trying it once, confirming that my monitor setup was the best and then return it.

 

That was about 2 months ago. I can't even stand playing DCS on my beautiful monitor now :cry::cry::cry:

 

Obviously it isn't perfect. Spotting aircraft further than maybe 4 miles is impossible without model enlargement. The cockpit details are actually much better than I'd expected, so long as your PC can handle it.

 

You might be waiting a while if you hold off until the next gen. Maybe just wait until prices come down for this gen.

[Fakum]

Sounds encouraging! Id like to take one for a test spin LOL,,,, I will keep my eye on this. I know what you guys mean when your trying to explain something to somebody and they just cant get the picture because they have not experienced it in real life,,, kinda like when TrackIR emerged. I remember talking to many people about it, and they couldn't understand what I meant when I would say stuff like,, I cant even imagine flying this without TrackIR now that I have it,,, I get it!

[Goblin]

I'm sure Goblin will agree with me when I say that short of a professional simulator, VR in it's present form is as close as you can get to the experience of being sat in a real cockpit without doing it for real.

 

I do... Like I said in an earlier post, a full cockpit with a dome projection screen would probably be better. But apart from that, VR is the best thing that has happened to flightsims.

 

But, then again, 3 or 4 screen setups with touchscreens, HOTAS and buttonboxes is also very cool, and has its advantages. And I can totally see why someone won't be prepared to ditch all that because of todays VR HMDs. It's not an option for me though. I've gone virtual, and found out that reality sucks! Won't be coming back. ;)

[twistking]

to get a little bit back to topic:

 

atm i can't afford a VR capable pc, so I'm still thinkign about "investing" in trackIR. a question to the VR-guys. if you learn a new (complex) aircraft (i want to buy the a10c soon f.e.) would yous till fly VR, or would you at the beginning perhaps use trackIR to have easier access to a second monitor, manuals etc. ...

as mentioned earlier, at some point i defintely want to buy VR and as a pure interim solution, trackIR is way to expensive.

so... do you VR-guys still use trackIR on special occasions, like learnign a new aircraft, making and testing missions etc. ...

Edited September 20, 2016 by twistking

[Goblin]

I don't think going back to 2D screen and TrackIR just to learn a new aircraft.

If I have to RTFM I'd just pause and pull the HMD up. :)

[Astronut]

My TIR hasn't been used since the 26th of April (the day my Rift arrived).

[hansangb]

to get a little bit back to topic:

 

atm i can't afford a VR capable pc, so I'm still thinkign about "investing" in trackIR. a question to the VR-guys. if you learn a new (complex) aircraft (i want to buy the a10c soon f.e.) would yous till fly VR, or would you at the beginning perhaps use trackIR to have easier access to a second monitor, manuals etc. ...

as mentioned earlier, at some point i defintely want to buy VR and as a pure interim solution, trackIR is way to expensive.

so... do you VR-guys still use trackIR on special occasions, like learnign a new aircraft, making and testing missions etc. ...

 

 

I gave mine away on this forum. After using Rift, (and Vive for that matter), it was useless to me. I know HEGYKC was going to develop a cheaper alternative to TrackIR, but no one really knows when it will be ready. Take a look at the F18 Grip thread here.

 

It comes down to cost. If you don't mind it, spend it on TrackIR because it is better than nothing. But it is useless after using VR. So if your goal is to go VR, it will be an interim solution.

 

Also, I think everyone would agree that mission editor is better suited on the monitor. I do have a "no VR" command line argument that I use when I want to fiddle with controller settings. But of course, I don't need TIR for that.

[twistking]

ok. thanks again. after reading all that, i really think about upgrading (for VR) earlier, than i originally planned.

 

as interim i'll check out HEGYKC's (thanks for the info) tracker or the other trackir alternatives, or maybe i can find a used trackIR on ebay...

[Mango]

With more users getting Oculus Rift, there's bound to be used Track IR's going up for sale in the near future. Bottom line is you must have one or the other. :)

[sea2sky]

of course. You can look at the switches just fine. Look, I can't explain the color red to someone who was born blind. So talking about immersion level to someone who never tried Rift/Vive in DCS is a waste of time.

 

Immersion consists of many aspects: visual, audible, sensory etc. While VR provides the greatest level in the visual department it (in my opinion) fails completely at the sensory one (at this point of time). I don't get what you mean by saying "you can look at the switches just fine". Do you have to take it off or you are looking through some sort of a gap? :)

[sea2sky]

Do you look for the turn signal lever, to use it, in your car? The brain's abilities combined with muscle memory makes the need to see something a bit superfluous in some situations.

 

The turn signal lever kind of switch would be something to compare with switches/buttons on HOTAS. Those are in the brain's memory of course. But I'm talking about dozens of other switches that did not fit to HOTAS. For some aircrafts I have about 60 programmable buttons assigned to various functions. Are you saying a pilot would turn each of them on/off without looking at them? :)

[Goblin]

Are you saying a pilot would turn each of them on/off without looking at them? :)

 

Actually, during WWII and forwards, pilots used to practise finding every switch in the cockpit, with their eyes closed. Systems are a bit more complex these days, so I doubt it's still common practise.

 

But you can use a mouse or touchpad, to interact with switches in the VR cockpit. Takes some getting used to, but works great once you get the hang of it.

[hansangb]

Immersion consists of many aspects: visual, audible, sensory etc. While VR provides the greatest level in the visual department it (in my opinion) fails completely at the sensory one (at this point of time). I don't get what you mean by saying "you can look at the switches just fine". Do you have to take it off or you are looking through some sort of a gap? :)

 

 

Yes, there is a gap between the nose. That's how I use my MFDs.

 

Rift has Realaudio built it.

 

Again, I don't care if people love or hate Rift. I don't get paid by Facebook to be an evangelist. I'm not here to convert anyone. Nor am I here to force it down anyone's throat. It simply has no bearing to me.

 

But IMO, it's the *best* thing that's *ever* happened to flight sims. By a country mile. Nothing even comes *close* to it. Not HOTAS, not TrackIR, not Padlock view. Nothing. To me, it's that significant of a game changer.

[hansangb]

And getting back on track a bit (no pun intended)

 

Have you seen this TIR alternative?: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2909334&postcount=16

[Astronut]

You are making way too much of the limitations r@m. Manipulating controls under VR with the mouse is very easy. Muscle memory places my hand back on the mouse without having to look through the nose gap. You don't need to look at your HOTAS for most of the commonly used functions. You don't need to use a haptic glove.

 

Having to occasionally glance through the nose gap does NOT ruin the entire experience, but you would have to try it to truly understand. Your brain fills in a lot of the gaps. It most definitely is the closest thing to giving you the feeling of being in a real cockpit - except being in a real cockpit or a professional grade simulator.

Edited September 25, 2016 by Astronut

[Astronut]

Have you tried it or have you just decided that it would ruin the whole experience for you? Have you read the number of posts on this forum from people saying they could never go back to simming on a flat screen? It is an utterly different experience. Peeking out is something you would do occasionally, not constantly. What is your current setup if you don't mind me asking?

 

As a side note, I don't get 100% immersion when I train in a (very expensive) Level D simulator. 100% Immersion means going out and flying the real airplane or helicopter. You will always have things that break in from the outside world. Noise, dogs barking, your wife trying to talk to you, someone knocking at your door, the graphical detail available as even a DCS cockpit in 4 K isn't as good as the real deal, even the smell of an aircraft makes a difference.

Edited September 25, 2016 by Astronut

[cichlidfan]

While I will admit that VR, as implemented currently, has some limitations. However, the feeling of flight cannot be duplicated on a flat screen. My first time up in the Huey was a disaster due to misconfigured controls, but the ensuing loss of control and crash were absolutely amazing. I actually felt like I might have been at risk of real physical harm due to the immersion.

[Goblin]

Well, as much as I love my Oculus Rift, and think it has elevated my flightsimming experience substantially, I have to say that I also agree with r@m. Interaction with controls has not been solved yet. Advanced clickable cockpits are a challenge to VR, and using a mouse is just a work aorund of sorts. Still, it's the best we've got at the moment, and it's a lot better than using a 2D screen and a mouse, IMO.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Goblin

[Fakum]

Ok,, where do I rent one to check it out ? :thumbup:

[Goblin]

As a side note, I don't get 100% immersion when I train in a (very expensive) Level D simulator.

 

I agree. It's hard to shake the sim feeling even in full size full motion sims...

I don't peek very often either. Mostly when I need to find the ESC key to end the mission :)

I know, I can map it...

 

But immersion is great! I have reached for the virtual canopy frame to get up, and felt my heart rate increase in a virtual crash...

I wrote it somewhere else on the forum, but you do see that you're in a sim. There's no denying that. Graphics ain't *that* good. But it's the depth of everyting, it's correct placement in the virtual world, that makes me believe in what I see.

The fact that 3D makes me focus on the runway on short final, and the cockpit is blurred out, just like it is in real life... I just love it! No it's not perfect, but it's waaaay better than a 2D screen, IMO.