AIM120"C" and AIM9"M" TEST TEAM READ!

[pschelchshorn]

g-ses!

Conclusion?! Cant wait till Fighterops comes out!!

 

Flip

[-razor-]

i agree, it is a good game, no questons about it, great graphiks, and so on. but the flightmodel is far from realistic, i know it is hard to make it 100%realistic, but everybodey says this is the most realistic flight sim out to day, no its not with this flight model. this will be a great sim when that have time to fix it, and make the airframe break at high g at supersonic.

[GGTharos]

A lot has been and are being made about the real life combat performance of missiles and the performance of the same simulated missiles in LOMAC.

 

But it seams that there is little talk about the actual events in wich

combat results take place.

 

 

Now I am no expert at any thing, but in all air-to-air engagements

that I have read about, I have never read about the employment

of any countermeasures!

 

I suspect there are two reasons for this:

One, countermeasures are typically classified, not in existance but in terms of tactical employment.

Two: If what I hear from real pilots is true, you don't want to be somewhere where you -need- to use CMs rather than kinematically defeating the missile.

Three: I've seen actual research papers involving chaff so believe you me ... -someone- is looking at how and when to use it more and more effectively :)

 

 

In all instances that I read about only limited maneuvering (If any!)

was employed by the pilots to evade the missiles.

 

I recall that there was an account posted on this forum about a Serbian MiG29

pilot that was shot down by an Aim120 (Everybody probably knows about this.).

When the guy got a launch warning (I guess when the Aim120 went active.), he

first waited to launch one of his own missiles and only then turned as hard as he could.

Also the F15 apparently launched the missile withing 15miles of the MiG29.

I am writing this from memory so the details could be wrong!

 

16-20nm actually, if we go by the timing. Missile evasion is violent, when and if you know its coming. His wingman apparently dodged the first one. This guy failed at it - as for countermeasures, they aren't mentioned, and head-on, they aren't effective anyway.

 

The Serbian pilot showed a lot of bravery in his actions, but it is my opinion that he

should have acted more prudently. In LOMAC a lot of experienced sim pilots are

of the opinion that one should first try to evade an incoming missile before he try

to launch one of his/her own.

 

No, actually you want to fire back. If you do not, you're completely defensive and you've lost.

 

Now I am sure that because of the limitations of personal computers and because

of the control of sensitive military information that there will be discrepancies between

real life weapon systems and how they are modeled in LOMAC.

 

 

To me the real value in LOMAC lies in the fact that one can use real life air-to-air tactics to achieve an outcome in this simulated world.

 

There are a lot of things we -can- do to try and make missiles more realistic, that are -not- classified. Right now those things are not being done, but they are scheduled to be done, and -then- we will be able to use realistic tactics, I sure hope so.

[-razor-]

Yeah, there are a lot of issues, starting with missiles - forget the aircraft right now - missiles are simply not perfoming as they ought to in many cases.

 

 

 

Now that would be nice :) (It may be that the Su-25 has such strange handling qualities, btw - this is probably not uncommon ... but a word from Oleg perhaps would be useful here)

 

 

 

Not true. F-22 is built do do what? BVR at mach 1.7 ;) It does this routinely because its engines allow it - but it is common knowledge that you want to accelerate to launch the missile, then slow down and pole.

 

 

 

 

We will need AFM for all aircrafts for this to happen, so ... it will not happen soon, but it -will- happen.

 

 

 

 

 

AAWWWWWW im talking about 1970 aircrafts, :D aluminium, titanium, f22 is carbenfiber and titanium, and as typhoon the F22 is made by a solid chassie like typhoon, wery stong and solid, thats why thay can do those crazy manuvers, metall is always metall and will break and bend, and F15 and the flanker family is made by aluminium, what is light and not strong, u could get a complite test room for the ja37 viggen. with flight is nessery, if i were the boss, what im not. :( im happy if u change name of the aim120"C" to aim120A/B here in sweden we use the aim120B, wery good messile, never missed at target when target practice :thumbup: soon wil the bvraam "meteor" take over.:pilotfly:

[GGTharos]

I didn't say they do crazy maneuvers though. What I said is that accelerating to give your missile more range is part of BVR ;)

 

As for meteor, that is still a pipe dream - it will be a -long- time before it takes over. It isn't going to be 'soon'.

[Shaman]

yeah...and modern Sukhois are made of rice-paper

 

Have you been eating too much WW2 British propaganda lately? ;)

[Shaman]

g-ses!

Conclusion?! Cant wait till Fighterops comes out!!

 

Flip

 

Then better double arm yourself with patience, seriously :smilewink:

[-razor-]

I didn't say they do crazy maneuvers though. What I said is that accelerating to give your missile more range is part of BVR ;)

 

As for meteor, that is still a pipe dream - it will be a -long- time before it takes over. It isn't going to be 'soon'.[/q

 

 

its tru, it will take years, but soon meens years:D

 

but where i want to come with this, is what u already know, limetid speed, and breaking aircraft is a good way, and it happens in real aircrafts as well, just like a speed reducer on thuse roads, it works, if players know that the aircraft my break at high g at high speeds, thay wont fly that fast, and it would be harder to dodge the messile in question that way peapul fly slower, what makes bvr combat more fun and realistc. there were a tomcat that exploded when supersonic and made some Gs dont know how many, but from my wyu(dont find the word), it looked like 4-5Gs pilots suvived.

[GGTharos]

Well, tomcats sadly have had a history of exploding engines :(

[FanBoy2006.01]

GGTharos thanks for the correct info.

 

Yes, if you shoot at someone, that gives them something else to do than to try and hunt you down. But if an AMRAAM goes active it is still my opinion to deal first with that threat than with the launch aircraft.

 

Remember those that don't fight and run away lives to run another day!

[-razor-]

what was later fixed on the C/D moddel, and that was a D moddel. sounds like im speaking with a wall. . . sadly but im putting my vitrual wing away for a while..

[Kenan]

i agree, it is a good game, no questons about it, great graphiks, and so on. but the flightmodel is far from realistic.

 

Actually, I know a friend who's uncle was in Croatian Airforce flying Mig21s. I've asked him to try Lockon and after an hour of flying around in a Mig29A he said the flight model felt, to his surprise, very 'real', though he complained about landings speeds ie. wheel tollerance, but then again, he also told me ne never flew 29 but this was his impression.

[GGTharos]

GGTharos thanks for the correct info.

 

Yes, if you shoot at someone, that gives them something else to do than to try and hunt you down. But if an AMRAAM goes active it is still my opinion to deal first with that threat than with the launch aircraft.

 

Remember those that don't fight and run away lives to run another day!

 

Oh, quite right. If your first warning is a missile going active, for me personally is split-S, run and don't look back! At this point you've lost any advantage you may have had.

[tflash]

With some practice you can live with amraam in Lomac, but what I never understood is why R-77 is such a nicely modelled missile in Lockon, that is a real joy to shoot, and Aim-120C is so botched up?

 

Since both missiles' performance is classified yet deemed comparable, why not use THE SAME modelling on both? Why does the R-77 fly a normal proportional and predictable course and is the Amraam a bizerk aerial ballerina flying anywhere but preferably not towards the target? (I always count entire unaccounted seconds of missile flight because the amraam is sightseeing - has nothing to do with chaff but with strange midcourse)

 

That the F-15 radar, which was specifically designed, introduced and PROVEN to have a far superior lookdown capability over the F-4's radar is totally inept in Lomac to do this is of course leading to unrealistic tactics.

 

In Lomac, you *dive* to stay *below* your target to avoid breaking lock. The F-15 could never have been conceived for such utterly nonsensical tactics.

 

This doesn't change my opinion on Lockon as the best combat sim, but it is strange to say the least.

 

What's worse: in WOE, a light sim (not even remotely meant as competition to LO) with a F-15A, I do not only have currently a better F-15 FM featuring inertia modelling, but also much more "natural" missile FM (older models AIM-9 and AIM-7F/M) where it DOES count whether you shoot up or down. In single user, I can fly much more natural tactics than in Lockon.

 

I like the whole BS thing but it is true the core Lockon game is getting dated.

[golfsierra2]

GGTharos thanks for the correct info.

 

Yes, if you shoot at someone, that gives them something else to do than to try and hunt you down. But if an AMRAAM goes active it is still my opinion to deal first with that threat than with the launch aircraft.

 

So, consequently, in this situation where somebody has launched a missile against you (and you don't know if it's a Fox 1 or Fox 3, only hear and see the spike indication of your RWR) you have to fire yourself to make your opponent react and then try to break his lock (which always will be a good thing to do, against semi-actve and active missile) before the AIM120 can go active...

 

Correct so far ?

[GGTharos]

Correct - if at all possible, you always want to fire back, otherwise what will happen is you will dodge the missile only to find the other guy sitting on your flank or tail 10km or less away ... the end for you, typically.

[golfsierra2]

Correct - if at all possible, you always want to fire back, otherwise what will happen is you will dodge the missile only to find the other guy sitting on your flank or tail 10km or less away ... the end for you, typically.

 

Except your playmate is going to delouse...

 

then you are the dragger, while your mate is the shooter

[GGTharos]

That is in a 2v1, but we're talking LOMAC and many LOMAC encounters are 1v1.

 

Also keep in mind that your wingman may -also- be dealing with a missile of his own (if your enemy is an F-15 and launches on both of you)

[spugnut]

if i were the boss at lomac, i wold fix souch things and scrap the blackshark.

 

Sorry - but this made me chuckle.

 

I too would cancel on a whim a project that has (at best guess) cost 5500 man hours in research, development, planning and coding. Just for a giggle.

 

ED is a commercial entity, and while patching existing products is satisfying it doesn't generate revenue. The sales of Black Shark will doubtless fund all of the fixes that GG_Tharos has patiently explained are in the pipe.

 

Relax, be happy - things will change.

[D-Scythe]

I find the AAM challenging, but one learns how to make them more effective by avoiding firing them in adverse conditions, the fact that their PK is rather low is a positive feature, otherwise we would have a 1 shot, 1 kill bore.

 

So you rather have fun than realism? Cause IRL, once the no-escape zones overlap for opposing fighters, things start dying - fast. Maybe not 1 shot 1 kill - but definitely 1 shot 0.9+ kill.

 

Lock On is supposed to be a simulation - if 1 shot 1 kill is the way it is, than it should be simulated.

[cool_t]

Respond

 

We all have talked about this issue 1-billion times and obviously ED is either in the back ground with the fixes or the team is sick and tired of each other and LOMAC. Maby they are going to scrap or sell LOMAC-Black shark to a new team that can C++ fixes in 40-hours with the proper fincial backing. Guys I am sure that ED or the principal of this game is not going to work for free they have kids, homes, cars, and ect. They made there cash and are going to cash out after Black Shark.

 

AMRAM 120ABC or what ever, on a good server, with out people pressing SCREEN-SHOT, 3 120s per engagement.

 

P.S. As of late I have been gunning people because they press screen shot and the 120s will miss every time! Even when the come back in with a different name.

 

:music_whistling:

[S77th-GOYA]

Mach number doesn't matter when it comes to g forces. 8 g's is 8 g's whether a plane is flying 400 MPH or 1800 MPH.

 

 

G forces are not the only forces to consider. To the pilot 8Gs is 8Gs. The force of drag is increased by the square of the velocity. While the increased drag area would be larger for a plane at 400 MPH pulling 8Gs, drag area isn't squared in the drag equation. If an 8G turn at 1800 MPH creates drag forces that are applied to the airframe in places that are not designed to take those kinds of forces, bad things might be possible.

 

Rhen would be a good source for whether or not G limits are in place for very high speed flight.

[cool_t]

Air frame

 

K, S!

 

A good pilot knows when to pull 8+ Gs in a western "Fly by wire" air craft, yet look out for my "15g" Cobra buddy! :joystick:

 

Capeeshh?

 

P.S. Good friends rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SuperKungFu]

saw this over at frugals and thought of cool_t :D

[TucksonSonny]

^^ no never easy flight=) if u do it slowly u can do it.

but in fackt yes modern jets like rafeal, typhoon and gripen all of them can do 9g for over 120sek at subsonic speed, typhoon is the only one that can make 9g supersonic (not sure if typhoon is the onlyone) but we do in gripen 9g only at subsonic, do +7g at supersonic in a fighter from 1970 is killing your self.

 

 

Thats why modern bvr fight is done with speed between 330-450 (450-500knots Sometimes) knots, in lomac the messiles seems to effect by G's not the turn rate, REAL messiles effekt by turnrate not g's, If u want a realistic sim, go fly the falcon 4 allied force, atleast the plane brake at high speed and high manuvers.

 

Lomac is too much graphiks and not enugh "flight"

 

alsow this, i knew from the start that there were someproblems with the stering, but i coul't figur out what and a month ago i found out what it was. When u roll the aircraft to the right, the nose will go to the left, and u have to rudder the plane with the right pedal in a REAL aircraft, u have a "ball" (ball is in lomac aswell) but in lomac that "ball" goes to the left in a right roll with is WERY WRONG! Why start with a chopper when there is miles of stuff to fix..

 

great graphiks, no bad with that, just that the flame after a burning aircraft is much longer and bigger.

 

Sorry for my english again, and belive me i know this bussnies.

 

 

It was explained before but let us summarize again:

 

That is why fighter planes have a G limiter (mostly 9G limit but they can pull harder: read 10-12G)

The aircraft was tested for this reason and is supposed to be break proof under this limit.

A Mirage 2000 for example could already pull about 11à12 G with no trouble.

Of course humans would pass out long before the plane would break in 2 parts.

Indeed the latest suits used by EF-2k pilots allow the pilot to take sustained G-turns at 9G without passing out.

In the past it happens occasionally that an F-4 Phantom lost an engine while pulling too many G’s (of course it had no G limiter and the design was not yet optimized to pull many G’s).

Remember: pulling x G = pulling x times your weight (mass)

Pulling 9G at Mach 0.8 = pulling 9G at Mach 1.4.

Anyway, I don’t know about the relation of the drag force factor with speed and altitude though but if it was a problem like you describe the G-limit would be set simply lower at these speeds.

(The G-limiter is nothing more than a computer program that predicts the G’s that you would pull and will correct you if necessary)

 

 

About falcon 4 allied force I will tell you something:

 

Lockon FC fm’s are closer to the HFFM’s (High Fidelity Flight Models done by Maf-JP & Raptor-one) than the crappy fm’s from Falcon AF.

 

Finally, if you want a realistic sim go fly the Su-25T (FC 1.12a)!