Fight's On! DCS: F-14 Update

[Gunny Highway]

Well boys, looks like its time to delete DCS World. An in-progress module is not up to random dudes idea of what an F14 Hud refresh rate should be.

[Mango]

@BlackLion LOL! Well put.

[Backy 51]

Nominated! Quote of the Year! :megalol:

 

Just for fun, lets have the same conversation about another topic.

 

Chef (developer with funny hat): we are cooking your chicken and here is a quick glance at how its done and what spices we plan to use.

 

Alarmist patron (forum-user) #1: my god! Have you noticed that the chicken isn't fully cooked?

 

Chef (developer with funny hat): Yes...that's why we are cooking it.

 

Alarmist patron (forum-user) #1: But it's undercooked, I don't like under-cooked chicken.

 

Chef (developer with funny hat ): Yes...that's why we are cooking it.

 

Alarmist patron (forum-user) #2: I can't eat undercooked chicken, I'll get sick.

 

Chef (developer with funny hat): Yes...that's why we are cooking it fully.

 

Alarmist patron (forum-user) #2: But it's not cooked yet!

 

Chef (developer with funny hat on): Yes, we are cooking it but decided to show you the kitchen. You see the crackling heat and rising stream right? It is still cooking.

 

Alarmist patron (forum-user) #2: I can't take the chance of getting sick, I demand prophylactic antibiotics so I won't get sick.

 

Chef (developer with funny hat): You don't need drugs, we are going to fully cook your chicken.

 

Alarmist patron (forum-user) #3: Under cooked chicken is going to be such a problem around here - why won't the chef cook it.

 

Chef (developer with funny hat): That's why we are cooking it!

 

This keeps up and no one gets to the see the kitchen for rather obvious reasons.

 

Please wait till things are done before commenting on done-ness. Heatblur has seen all of the same videos and they plan to make it look just like those. If you are playing the module in early access and have serious problems, please let them know.

 

Otherwise, please remain seated while they cook the chicken!

 

-Nick

[The Black Swan]

Good grief guys, Cut him some slack!

I'm sure if the finished version is significantly better he would consider getting it.

But if it's not significantly different, he's simply asking for an option to change the refresh rate.

Can you blame a guy for wanting to avoid migraine headaches?!

Mocking him definitely isn't the answer.

Just calm down and re-read his quotes... I think you are overreacting to what he said.

 

Personally the refresh rate doesn't bother me.

I'm sure if it doesn't change much then heatblur will consider adding an option for this.

Edited March 17, 2017 by The Black Swan

[Buzzles]

I'm sure if it doesn't change much then heatblur will consider adding an option for this.

 

Which they've already said they'll look into maybe doing it in the future.

 

Ironically, making a buttery smooth HUD is quite easy, making it more realistic is more difficult. It's not (only) that the refresh is quite slow on the F-14, but also that various subsystems represented on the HUD can update their info at different rates, and even depending on modes etc., so some symbols will update more often than others. The display itself is quite interesting too, it is a hybrid vector/raster display, so some items are drawn calligraphically, and by nature this slows down when more lines are displayed.

 

We can maybe consider a smooth HUD option if there is great demand for it in future. Keep in mind the current stuff you're seeing on the video is very much work in progress, so don't draw too many conclusions about what the final product will look like at this point in time.

 

So there.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Buzzles

[probad]

Just for fun, lets have the same conversation about another topic.

 

Chef (developer with funny hat): we are cooking your chicken and here is a quick glance at how its done and what spices we plan to use.

 

Alarmist patron (forum-user) #1: my god! Have you noticed that the chicken isn't fully cooked?

 

Chef (developer with funny hat): Yes...that's why we are cooking it.

 

Alarmist patron (forum-user) #1: But it's undercooked, I don't like under-cooked chicken.

 

Chef (developer with funny hat ): Yes...that's why we are cooking it.

 

Alarmist patron (forum-user) #2: I can't eat undercooked chicken, I'll get sick.

 

Chef (developer with funny hat): Yes...that's why we are cooking it fully.

 

Alarmist patron (forum-user) #2: But it's not cooked yet!

 

Chef (developer with funny hat on): Yes, we are cooking it but decided to show you the kitchen. You see the crackling heat and rising stream right? It is still cooking.

 

Alarmist patron (forum-user) #2: I can't take the chance of getting sick, I demand prophylactic antibiotics so I won't get sick.

 

Chef (developer with funny hat): You don't need drugs, we are going to fully cook your chicken.

 

Alarmist patron (forum-user) #3: Under cooked chicken is going to be such a problem around here - why won't the chef cook it.

 

Chef (developer with funny hat): That's why we are cooking it!

 

This keeps up and no one gets to the see the kitchen for rather obvious reasons.

 

Please wait till things are done before commenting on done-ness. Heatblur has seen all of the same videos and they plan to make it look just like those. If you are playing the module in early access and have serious problems, please let them know.

 

Otherwise, please remain seated while they cook the chicken!

 

-Nick

qft, this deserves to be on the top of every page

[VincentLaw]

Anyone who has taken software engineering classes should have seen a graph like this at some point. (I should not have to post this graph every time I give feedback)

 

 

As long as the feedback is respectful and constructive, customer feedback at this stage in development can help save money later in the development cycle by catching issues early. Calling anyone who sees issues with a pre-alpha video an "alarmist" is not doing any favors for Heatblur. Now, if you are calling out people for insulting Heatblur, or if you notice their feedback is not very constructive like a vague "this looks terrible", that is different.

 

My feedback was specifically in response to this post:

 

The refresh rate will be higher for certain elements on the HUD. In this video, examples include the guncross and tracking diamond, which exist on a seperate rasterizer.

These will refresh more quickly than e.g. nav elements.

 

Once we have implemented our shaders for the HUD (think Viggen HUD) -- it will look far more natural with a lower refresh rate. Right now it's quite jarring, especially in 60fps contrast to everything else.

 

He specifically mentions the tracking diamond and guncross will have higher refresh rates, and gives nav elements as an example of something that will have a slow refresh rate upon completion.

 

This is why I posted my video of an F-14 HUD, because I consider the pitch ladder a nav element, and the real pitch ladder from the video has a substantially faster refresh rate than the one in Heatblur's video.

[nrgized]

Anyone who has taken software engineering classes should have seen a graph like this at some point. (I should not have to post this graph every time I give feedback)

 

 

As long as the feedback is respectful and constructive, customer feedback at this stage in development can help save money later in the development cycle by catching issues early. Calling anyone who sees issues with a pre-alpha video an "alarmist" is not doing any favors for Heatblur. Now, if you are calling out people for insulting Heatblur, or if you notice their feedback is not very constructive like a vague "this looks terrible", that is different.

 

My feedback was specifically in response to this post:

 

 

 

He specifically mentions the tracking diamond and guncross will have higher refresh rates, and gives nav elements as an example of something that will have a slow refresh rate upon completion.

 

This is why I posted my video of an F-14 HUD, because I consider the pitch ladder a nav element, and the real pitch ladder from the video has a substantially faster refresh rate than the one in Heatblur's video.

 

LOL!

 

After all my years I've learned one single important fact...

 

If a developer releases screenshots or talks about something you are almost 99% getting it that way. Rarely does it change.

 

You're almost required to flip out and have a tantrum if you want any glimmer of hope that it will be changed.

 

The "oh its pre-alpha blah blah blah" person... Well lets just say you could probably successfully sell them real-estate on the moon.

[Buzzles]

LOL!

 

After all my years I've learned one single important fact...

 

If a developer releases screenshots or talks about something you are almost 99% getting it that way. Rarely does it change.

 

You're almost required to flip out and have a tantrum if you want any glimmer of hope that it will be changed.

 

The "oh its pre-alpha blah blah blah" person... Well lets just say you could probably successfully sell them real-estate on the moon.

 

You've either worked with some pretty bad developers then or have been the end user rather than the person speccing and accepting the version that hits UAT.

[probad]

You're almost required to flip out and have a tantrum if you want any glimmer of hope that it will be changed.

that's their mistake for positively reinforcing manchild behavior.

[VincentLaw]

Now, for really precisely constructive feedback: I have carefully reviewed each video and determined the pitch ladder refresh rate on the real HUD tape is approximately 20 Hz, while the pitch ladder refresh rate on Heatblur's HUD is around 7 Hz.

 

Hopefully this is much more helpful to Heatblur than simply saying "It looks faster in the real one."

[probad]

i would hope they know that already through their own research.

Edited March 17, 2017 by probad

[nrgized]

You've either worked with some pretty bad developers then or have been the end user rather than the person speccing and accepting the version that hits UAT.

 

That is sadly the norm for software development companies and anything else is an oddity or wishful thinking.

[VincentLaw]

but how constructive is it really, you think they don't know already?

 

this isn't the arma 3 modding forum.

If they didn't have the correct numbers, then it was helpful. If they did, then they can think of the verification as a confidence booster. No creator is immune to mistakes. In fact, most software companies have a larger staff dedicated to quality assurance than software development.

 

I have made my critique for now, and I will reserve further criticism until close to release when everything has had a chance to get fleshed out and polished. If the error still exists at that point, I will point it out again, but it would inevitably cost more to fix if they were not aware of the issue until that point.

 

Also, good observation. This is Heatblur's subsection of the DCS forums.

Edited March 17, 2017 by VincentLaw

[lunaticfringe]

Chef (moving on to the sauce): And here we make the marinara to go with your chicken parm, from a secret family recipe. We receive all our produce for that recipe fresh from local growers daily, including the tomatoes and peppers.

 

Alarmed Patron #2: But does that include the onions and mushrooms?

 

Alarmed Patron #1: And what about the herbs- are those fresh?

 

Chef: That's why I said "all". And the freshness comes through in every bite.

 

Alarmed Patron #2: But why didn't you specify up front? You only said "tomatoes and cilantro".

 

Chef: No, I said 'all our produce for that recipe', and 'including tomatoes and peppers'.

 

Alarmed Patron #2: Are you sure you can't just give us the shopping list and recipe so we can itemize?

 

Chef: Get the hell out of my kitchen.

 

(fifteen minutes later)

 

Placated Patron #1: I really have to hand it to the Chef- this really is delicious.

 

Placated Patron #2: Yeah, but I really don't know why he had to be such an ass about it..."

[GaryIKILLYOU]

Once again you are prejudging something that is still WIP. Are you so certain that the final result will be something that can cause "medical issues"?

I am aware that the refresh rate for the HUD is WIP. This does not need repeated. Nor should it be necessary to repeat "If this option isn't available, LNS doesn't get my money.". I'm not asking them to change it for everyone. I'm asking for a user option to change it. If that is too difficult or strenuous a task for them, then I shall skip this module. I promise you I'm not trying to be difficult lol.

[lunaticfringe]

No, what you're directing them to do is to add an alteration to something without evidence to support the final product will be an issue for you.

[GaryIKILLYOU]

No, what you're directing them to do is to add an alteration to something without evidence to support the final product will be an issue for you.

I'm not going to lay $120 on a piece of software that at this point in time shows evidence of being unplayable for me. I don't understand why everyone is so upset over asking for a user option.

Edited March 17, 2017 by GaryIKILLYOU
forgot about the ole lady's copy

[lunaticfringe]

And I don't know why you're unprepared to allow them the opportunity to correct the HUD elements of the actual aircraft before demanding they make an exception on your behalf.

 

We're no less than two quarters before the early access window. Relax. More footage will be available later for you to ascertain if it will actually be an issue for you. If so, then will be the time for you to petition they spend time on it- not now.

[GaryIKILLYOU]

And I don't know why you're unprepared to allow them the opportunity to correct the HUD elements of the actual aircraft before demanding they make an exception on your behalf.

 

We're no less than two quarters before the early access window. Relax. More footage will be available later for you to ascertain if it will actually be an issue for you. If so, then will be the time for you to petition they spend time on it- not now.

I'm stressing a possible issue that may prevent myself from enjoying a module from my favorite developers. I'm not petitioning, just would like to be able to enjoy this module as much as possible when it releases. While it is a ways away from release, I don't feel it's sacrilege to simply speak my opinion and desires for a product that I plan to purchase multiple copies of (due to multi-pit play (wife saw it was coming out and demanded to be "Goose")). Apologies to anyone who's offended.

[VincentLaw]

I'm not going to lay $60 on a piece of software that at this point in time shows evidence of being unplayable for me. I don't understand why everyone is so upset over asking for a user option.

In the past, some DCS developers have reduced their communications to the public as a response to abusive customer feedback, and as a result some forum members here are extra sensitive of any suggestions or criticisms given to developers because they are worried the developers might take offense and stop sharing WIP content.

 

We are all here for the same reason. We all care about DCS, and want it to be the best sim it can be. Some of us show this appreciation by giving feedback to the developers so they may better improve their products, and some people show their appreciation by attacking all feedback to maintain a positive reinforcement environment for the developers.

[lunaticfringe]

I'm stressing a possible issue that may prevent myself from enjoying a module from my favorite developers.

 

You're pointing at something that they already admitted, in this very thread before you brought it up, is a known issue, and dictating that you won't spend $60 on their product- not if they don't correct it, but if they don't add extra work to appease you, even though you don't have actual evidence showing the correction they state is coming will be an issue for you.

 

If they correct the applicable HUD elements to the TM refresh rate, and they stick up a 60 fps video showing the correct performance and it still presents an issue for you, sure- make the request. But to issue your line in the sand now, when the evidence you have now isn't anywhere near pertinent to the release product-

 

You have to admit- that's a fairly ridiculous position to start a conversation from. I don't see anybody taking offense, just pointing out that obvious fact.

 

Allow things to proceed in an orderly fashion. Provide them the opportunity to show it fixed, allow yourself to see if whether or not it actually bothers you, and then work from there.

 

I mean, hell- if they're your favorite, as you say, and have shown their ability to meet your expectations in the past, as I suspect they have, that favoritism would give them at least a little benefit of the doubt, yes?

 

In the past, some DCS developers have reduced their communications to the public as a response to abusive customer feedback, and as a result some forum members here are extra sensitive of any suggestions or criticisms given to developers because they are worried the developers might take offense and stop sharing WIP content.

 

Some. Others, such as myself, have told developers in private conversation that there's not much point in jumping through the hoops of yet another segment of the population that demand an update every time they hit the john. There are very few "SHOW ME" moments that can really take place in the development of something like this. Model. Model skinned. Interior. Interior skinned. In flight. Panels. Functional animations of the interior and exterior. That's not a lot of real potential updates over the two or more year development life of a product.

 

Anything else demands exposition- statements that, whether you like it or not, are going to be parsed to hell and back by folks with nothing better to do with their time, and will be used against you as a drum six months to a year down the road when something has changed in either the model, the schedule, or what you're permitted to produce by the license holder. Doesn't matter how many copy editors you throw it at.

 

It's much less stress for a development team and their contacts to run silent on the comings and goings on of project from one big reveal to the next. Structured absence makes the heart grow fonder in more than romance, and it stokes a hotter fire long term.

 

The Viggen was a perfect example of that. It was supposition. Then the trailer. Presale a month later. Then prerelease the next. Plenty of threads about it, yet almost nothing the whole way from Leatherneck. And it went off nicely. Very little flak in any direction- to the developers, or between the forum members themselves.

[bC3660]

Chef (moving on to the sauce): And here we make the marinara to go with your chicken parm, from a secret family recipe. We receive all our produce for that recipe fresh from local growers daily, including the tomatoes and peppers.

 

Alarmed Patron #2: But does that include the onions and mushrooms?

 

Alarmed Patron #1: And what about the herbs- are those fresh?

 

Chef: That's why I said "all". And the freshness comes through in every bite.

 

Alarmed Patron #2: But why didn't you specify up front? You only said "tomatoes and cilantro".

 

Chef: No, I said 'all our produce for that recipe', and 'including tomatoes and peppers'.

 

Alarmed Patron #2: Are you sure you can't just give us the shopping list and recipe so we can itemize?

 

Chef: Get the hell out of my kitchen.

 

 

 

(fifteen minutes later)

 

Placated Patron #1: I really have to hand it to the Chef- this really is delicious.

 

Placated Patron #2: Yeah, but I really don't know why he had to be such an ass about it..."

 

I really herd a Chief say this to a pilot once when he was trying to argue with him " Boy I have flushed more saltwater under my ass than you have sailed across"

[Guitrz]

To be honest I quite like the slower HUD, adds charm to the fighter. I meant it was becoming a problem among the other people...

[Cobra847]

Don't worry.

 

If we find in playtesting that we need to add an option for those who get sick from the HUD; we will do so.

I don't see it being an issue in terms of historical balance, as the slow elements of the hud are not weapons related anyways. (E.g., the guncross and targeting diamond are always pretty quick to refresh).

 

Right now, the HUD elements refresh at a constant base rate that is the lowest of all the elements. There is plenty of work to be done to set the correct refresh rate for each individual element, as well as make the HUD look properly analogue. :)