R-27EA (AE) on Su-27

[Alfa]

Any other reliable sources (I consider Jane's pretty much reliable..) ?

 

I don't :D

 

AA-10, Alamo R-27AE, is reported to be operational and in service since 1995. Got that from a friend who owns a (very expensive) 2004 Jane's CD "Air-launched Weapons'.

 

At least THEY confirmed that the AE made it into active service.

 

GS there are lots of examples of Janes getting things wrong and then later correcting them as more reliable info comes along. They are just collecting their info like the rest of us - nothing wrong with that as long as you don't rely on them to be your ultimate source :)

[Pilotasso]

Possibly but you could also ask why the US didn't make an ARH version of the AIM-7, but instead opted for a new missile design(AIM-120) :) .

 

 

Actualy they did, AIM-7R. Well kinda. It had dual SARH/IR seeker and was suposed to guide in with SARH and then swich into IR for terminal run. But it came when AMRAAM was in the horizon and it brought true ARH multi engagement capability. I dont know how many AIM-Rs could be fired at once or if they could be shot in RWS untill IR seeker would take over, but they did have datalink wich makes this probable.

[Force_Feedback]

Okay, to sum it up, are there any indications that there were any quantities of the AE variant in either Russian or Ukrainian service? Don't come up with pics or quoting books by 'experts', any info from the real weapon guys? The R-27P, should, by using the logic everyone seems to take for granted in this thread, be added to the game. Because, if it's now up for export sale, and since the Russians have the Ks-172 to replace it, it should be in game, right? No, we should have people that actually worked with these things, not spent their free time lurking on the net for R-27AE pics, or stating such things don't exist. No, we should ask people who were actually responsible for those weapons, and ask them, if they ever received such seeker variants, remember, not whole missiles, maybe the autopilot section was different on the -EA or -P, although I doubt it. <-- Again, speculation, maybe they did have other control sections.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

At this point I don’t really care about including EA in the game. And I wish this thread is not about that either.

 

It is about the Soviet/Russian technology of AA missiles. Did they have, no matter how good, an ARH missile when Su-27 enter the service (or soon after)?

[Pilotasso]

No

[Force_Feedback]

No, and most of them still doesn't, as only 24 Su-27SMs have been delivered to the Russian Airforce, that's why the only ARH himing missile in the RuAF inventroy is the RVV-AE. AFAIK the R-27EA seeker upgrade was put up for export in 1997/1998, but, except for the PLAF, had no other customers.

[Pilotasso]

Just to add, Su-27SM's have RVV-AE too, 12 operational up to now.

[Groove]

Argh, here are the pics of the EA seekers, yes it's no fantasy, and maybe China bought them in 2004-2005, but I don't know for sure. http://www.agat.rosprom.org/prod.htm

 

It's the manufacturers site, so no more speculative whining on the seeker

 

 

Cool product portfolio - they start with:

 

 

and end with:

 

 

:D

[Pilotasso]

Makes sense, after all I wont pee at a sight of R-77 wich will make me need that Uroflowmeter! :D

[Dudikoff]

Need an old 8 inch floppy drive ? :megalol:

 

Hey, no need for insults. It's old but not THAT old.

 

BUT, a 5,25 inch drive might come in handy.. :)

[Force_Feedback]

Just to add, Su-27SM's have RVV-AE too, 12 operational up to now.

 

24 in june of 2006 at the Dzemgi AFB already, and ofcourse they have it, hence bieng the only planes to carry an ARH missile in the RuAF.

[Kula66]

Just to add, Su-27SM's have RVV-AE too, 12 operational up to now.

 

They aren't going to do much with only 12 missiles! ;)

[TucksonSonny]

They aren't going to do much with only 12 missiles! ;)

 

 

12 are the load out of two F-16’s (More than enough)… ;)

[Pilotasso]

But it also takes just 4 F-16's to bring all those flankers down. :)

[TucksonSonny]

But it also takes just 4 F-16's to bring all those flankers down. :)

 

 

The flanker pilot will laugh his pants off while just cruising along while the vipers go bingo in minutes.

Like mud-movers going bingo the F-16's will end up finally ejecting…:D

[Pilotasso]

THey wont have to, when the flanker pilots finaly realize their missiles arent doing their job the laughter stops and they might as well use all that fuel to run away. :D

[golfsierra2]

The flanker pilot will laugh his pants off while just cruising along while the vipers go bingo in minutes.

Like mud-movers going bingo the F-16's will end up finally ejecting…:D

 

Excellent ! Touché ! LMAO

[rogue_blade]

f16 > flanker in dogfight. BVR i dont know neither could i care. BVR cool factor = 0

[Pilotasso]

To be honest I think the true BVR capability of a modern F-16 Versus a Flanker is pretty much unknown.

 

In one side theres this mental picture that the flanker looks big and mean and makes great airshows. However Historicaly Russian aircraft have consistently disapointed under the skin after much hype surrounding them.

Mig-25, Mig-23, Mig-29 and Su-27S have failed miserably in combat after being often described by aviation fans as ultimate fighters.

Russia advertising of their own hardware have always been very optimistic. Also with the excecption of the Indians and the mentality of the intrepid north vietnamese pilots, every other operator of russian designs also provided poor training and bad doctrines. The failiure of every russian missile with the exception of the R-73 doesnt help. The most successfull Russian fighters ever, The Mig-15 and the Mig-21 gained respect from the west with the gun, never with missiles (note, this was at a time where it was the west turn to have difficulties with theirs). The other types that followed them were much more dependent on missiles in the modern era of dogfight and they all got terrible reputation where it counts: to get shots off on target. This is why I have always said that without reliable means to see first and shoot first (you also have to hit first or else thats not enough) you can have a wonderfully perfoming aircraft but awfull combat record.

 

So from this point of view, I feel I have enough room throw some rants, not because Im entirely convinced about them but rather because I have history to cover for my lack of profound technical knowelege of the new flankers variants full capabilities.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

I have several books mentioning that as well but they also say between the lines "when it enters service", …

So you do have books that list R-27EA missile in Soviet/Russian inventory. What books are those?

 

IF anyone ever had any R-27EA's it would be the chinese.

You just said above that you have books stating R-27EA missile was in Soviet/Russian inventory. What books are you talking about?

[GGTharos]

You aren't reading what he wrote, obviously.

No, they don't list them in Russian inventory - they say 'when it enters service'.

[Esac_mirmidon]

I totally disagree with this " The most successfull Russian fighters ever, The Mig-15 and the Mig-21 gained respect from the west with the gun, never with missiles "

 

In a brief read into some books about Vietnam War, talking about CONFIRMED kills of the NVAF, 69 kills where achivied with the R3-S missile and 45 with cannons.

 

I think this is quite sucesfull in an era of " miserably " failing IR missiles. And about only with guns, well, the numbers are there.

 

Israel, IMHO, the country with the largest experience in real air combat achivied most of the kills with short IR missiles like Aim-9 and Python III. Only a few were with Aim-7F and 7M, very few if we compare with short IR missiles. And a lot of them also with cannons.

 

Poor BVR missiles ratio kill is a common denominator for many countries, not only for Russia.

 

It is very difficult to find BVR shots with russian missiles, some could be find it but are very few. But with USA weapons like Aim-7 the numbers are also low, and with Aim-120 lower. ( Aim-9 wins always, because ROE limited BVR tactics )

 

One reason could be that PacVar and Otan never entered in conflict ( thanks Lord ) and the conflicts where Russian armament was employed like Afghanistan, Georgia, Eritrea, were low intensity, low trained crew, and poor maintenance of equipment and weapons.

 

This could be a reason about no real info of russian BVR missiles in real combat, because Russian Air Force never entered in real global conflict against any country since WWII. Other countries using russian weapons are not reliable enough to find a good conclusion about BVR kills.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

You aren't reading what he wrote, obviously.

No, they don't list them in Russian inventory - they say 'when it enters service'.

Read his post one more time GGTharos. Pilotasso said “…but they also say between the lines "when it enters service",…”. What is “between the lines” statement about?

 

Also, Pilotasso clearly stated that he HAS SEVERAL books “mentioning” R27-EA was in service.

 

You are not reading what Pilotasso wrote, obviously.

[GGTharos]

No, I know what Pilotasso wrote. I guess you're just not understanding it. :)

Besides which, ED has far better sources - like contacts within the VVS - to determine wether the EA ever was in service...and I believe they have indicated that it is not - at least, not in the VVS.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

No, I know what Pilotasso wrote.

You are demonstrating that you don’t.

I guess you're just not understanding it. :)

You are guessing wrong.

 

Pilotasso clearly stated (post 235) that he has “several books mentioning” R-27EA in service. Let Pilotasso tell us which books are those.

 

I fully believe Eagle Dynamics and their knowledge about R-27EA.