TrackIR - community test

[hughlb]

Hi guys,

 

I've had a niggling issue with TrackIR for over a year now - above, and especially below 120fps, TrackIR stutters - not DCS, the framerate is smooth, but looking around looks like 25fps - it's most noticeable between 90-100fps.

 

My theory is that it's a conflict between DCS and the 120hz that TrackIR natively runs at (or it's a TrackIR issue). If I use the hat on my joystick to look around, there is absolutely no stutter.

 

But I need your help to verify this problem.

 

My setup is in my sig, I run a gsync monitor, with both gsync enabled/disabled, at 60, 85, 100, 120, and 144hz. My framerate is unlocked in DCS, and I have TrackIR5 with the latest version of the software installed.

 

If a few of you could run the sim, and simply observe how smooth TrackIR is at framerates from 60-150+, and at different monitor hertz, that would be most helpful. I'm trying to collect some data for Mike at NaturalPoint.

[JG14_Smil]

I won't be much help, my system is pretty old and I run 60hrz on my triple monitor setup. I use a 4 year old version of TIR software as the newer version conflicted with my Phidgets LED controllers. I can manage 90-100 fps in 1.5 DCS and my TIR functions properly at all times.

 

That is great you are collecting info for NP and I hope it goes well for you. Best of luck.

[Sgt_Baker]

+1 Verification as per your description of the issue. Don't use TrackIR with DCS for precisely this reason. It performs poorly enough to be more of an irritation than anything else. Always thought it was merely my setup not coping, and thought little more of it.

[hughlb]

+1 Verification as per your description of the issue. Don't use TrackIR with DCS for precisely this reason. It performs poorly enough to be more of an irritation than anything else. Always thought it was merely my setup not coping, and thought little more of it.

 

Excellent, this is the sort of feedback I'm looking for, Sgt_Baker. Thanks also JG14_Smil.

 

Those who are reading this thread for the first time, jump in DCS and test if you can. The more feedback, the better the opportunity to work out what the issue is.

[Sgt_Baker]

It has just occurred to me that in addition to a "stuttering" issue there may also be one where latency is concerned. If memory servers - and I'm rather inclined to run some tests - I do recall noticing a degree of "rubber banding".

 

Will get back to you.

 

Edit: Scrap that. Nothing that can't be cured with the Smoothing setting.

Edited April 22, 2017 by Sgt_Baker

[Automan]

Are you using Track Hat or Track Clip Pro?

[hughlb]

Are you using Track Hat or Track Clip Pro?

 

Track Clip Pro, on my end.

[some1]

Have you tried to change the priority of Trackir process to High or Realtime?

[hughlb]

Have you tried to change the priority of Trackir process to High or Realtime?

 

Yes, done probably anything you can think of ;) Even bought a new OS, vid card, memory, ssd, usb pci card, monitor, and peripherals... practically a new computer. I am guessing this problem is common, but not many people are running 120hz-140hz monitors with an uncapped framerate, so they're not seeing the issue. It's incredibly annoying because at 120fps/120hz with gsync, it's so smooth, so you really notice the difference.

[Automan]

I use 120hz monitor, v-sync enabled and never feel stutter in TrackIr movements with clip pro. Instead, when I was using the hat, it showed some sort of delay/stuck in movements.

[Sgt_Baker]

I've just run a series of tests using a Special Scientific Method™, including the legitimate use of a brown envelope, and unfortunately the problem appears to have gone away since I last tried TrackIR with DCS.

 

There's a standard 1-frame input lag between TracKIR and DCS due to the way DirectX queues up frames before displaying them, but other than DCS's craptactular texture/geometry loading causing stuttering (which I eliminated as a variable by panning around completely to preload all visible textures etc) everything else was fine.

 

Hurmph. It honestly was borked!

 

If you're interested I can detail the testing procedure. At least it removes the human subjectivity variable.

 

--Baker

[hughlb]

I've just run a series of tests using a Special Scientific Method™, including the legitimate use of a brown envelope, and unfortunately the problem appears to have gone away since I last tried TrackIR with DCS.

 

There's a standard 1-frame input lag between TracKIR and DCS due to the way DirectX queues up frames before displaying them, but other than DCS's craptactular texture/geometry loading causing stuttering (which I eliminated as a variable by panning around completely to preload all visible textures etc) everything else was fine.

 

Hurmph. It honestly was borked!

 

If you're interested I can detail the testing procedure. At least it removes the human subjectivity variable.

 

--Baker

 

Yes, if you could detail the testing procedure that'd be great! I am not ruling out that there is a hardware issue with my specific TrackIR device, which is always possible. I noted a couple of people in previous threads that appeared to have the same issue, but again, it might be specific to a certain hardware configuration, or game configuration.

[BitMaster]

With rig from sig I get anywhere from 60-180fps, unlocked & Gsynced, 144Hz Asus screen.

 

Smooth as silk on my end in all 3 versions across the fps range.

[cichlidfan]

TIR is the one part of my DCS experience that has never been an issue.

[Sgt_Baker]

Yes, if you could detail the testing procedure that'd be great! I am not ruling out that there is a hardware issue with my specific TrackIR device, which is always possible. I noted a couple of people in previous threads that appeared to have the same issue, but again, it might be specific to a certain hardware configuration, or game configuration.

 

Will do tomorrow. It's something of a long-winded write up with screenshots, idiot-proofing etc, but worth following the rather easy method to remove the human factor as much as possible.

 

It's interesting to note that I've re-plugged** my entire system and clean-installed the Windows Creators update since my last attempt at using TrackIR with DCS. Thus, the TrackIR camera might not be plugged in to the same USB port/internal hub/controller as it was previously. I'm also now using the default Windows drivers for chipset, USB etc, whereas previously I was using those provided by AMD.

 

--Baker

 

 

**So it turns out that my VERY EXPENSIVE case from Corsair wasn't grounded properly. I record music quite a bit, so RFI/EMI is something of a concern. What they had done was paint all the case parts before assembling them, which left pretty much everything not directly in contact with the power supply completely ungrounded. Spent a day manually scraping off paint and creating a mixture of hard-soldered and removable earth wires to provide low-impedance paths to ground for every external panel and mounting... and BANG: 20dB reduction in interference from the box. That means it's spitting out 1/10th the amount of noise in real terms. :)

[Deezle]

I do notice TIR head movement seems a little smoother at 60+ FPS than lower levels, but never enough to bother me.

 

My TIR doesn't work worth a damn if it's plugged into a USB hub though, tracking drops out constantly, regardless of settings, works fine plugged directly into my mobo.

[Bummer]

My TIR doesn't work worth a damn if it's plugged into a USB hub though, tracking drops out constantly, regardless of settings, works fine plugged directly into my mobo.

 

 

 

Thank you for this tip.

Moved the TIR USB from the front of my computer (hub) to the back (mobo), and stuttering is almost completely gone.

I am a happy pilot again.

[Bearfoot]

Relevant:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3124147&postcount=161

[hughlb]

Relevant:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3124147&postcount=161

 

I was hopeful, but unfortunately I'm currently on the latest version of TrackIR software, but with no luck. I have tried the following over the last year:

 

2 monitors - gsync/non-gsync

2 video cards - 970/1070

2 different 16GB DDR3 kits - 1 1600, 1 2400

2 different SSD's - two different brands and sizes

8 different USB slots - 3.0 and 2.0, front, mobo, pci-e card

Tried 2 different OS - 8.1 and 10

Tried a fresh install of OS, and DCS

Tried various drivers, firmware etc.

Tried different Nvidia and game settings, including vsync, gsync, no sync

Clean install of windows and DCS, including formatting all drives, three times now.

Bios updated to the latest version

Hyperthreading on/off, and various other latency, affinity tweaks (currently at default)

 

No issues with stuttering with DCS, or other 3D applications - stuttering only occurs in conjunction with trackIR/DCS

 

Can anyone think of anything else I can try?

 

Could it be my motherboard? my PSU? CPU? TrackIR hardware? - I've almost bought an entirely new machine to resolve this issue.

 

I can't replicate the problem in other games, it seems native to DCS.

 

I've had tickets with ED and with NaturalPoint, but I think they're at the point where there isn't anything else to try. It's disappointing to throw this much money and time at the problem, and still not know what the cause is, let alone how to fix it.

Edited April 29, 2017 by hughlb

[Sgt_Baker]

...and still not know what the cause is, let alone how to fix it.

 

Haven't forgotten about you regarding the sensible testing setup. Does appear that you're pulling your hair out right now. Might be wise to take a few steps back? For your own sanity?

 

:)

 

--Baker

 

Edit: What I mean is that nobody should spend $4000 making a $400 component work.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Sgt_Baker

[Automan]

Mhm... lot of things can interfere , but I've found a post in The Rise of Flight forum:

 

Since the very beginning, i always had a problem with my Freetrack/TrackIR become very stuttery when using both FFB and TrackIR at the same time.

 

I now found a way to get rid of this:

 

The reason for this stuttering was my mouse-axis. By default, you can control the view with your mouse (look around when in the cockpit etc.). TrackIR "overrides" the mouse-input.

 

What i now did, was unbinding the mouse-axis, so i can ONLY control the view with Freetrack. It completely fixes this problem for me and it works perfectly smooth now.

 

Have you tried to delete the mouse binding in DCS?

 

Another thing about USB 2.0/3.0

The maximum power draw for a USB 2.0 is 500ma and 900ma for 3.0

The usual power draw for track IR is 350ma +

Some motherboards, have the USB ports coupled on the rear, try to leave the nearest free, as Kuky wrote in an old post years ago.

 

A shot in the dark here, is your TrackIR plugged in into motherboard USB on its own? I mean the USB hub on the motherboard has 2 USB ports and each hub is rated 500mA and TrackIR is using 350mA... so try to have only TrackIR use the motherboard USB hub (leave USB port next to it free), also you can try changing power options in windows, go to advances settings for your power profile and make sure power management for the USB ports is off.

 

You can try also with a USB powered hub.

[Bearfoot]

I was hopeful, but unfortunately I'm currently on the latest version of TrackIR software, but with no luck. I have tried the following over the last year:

 

2 monitors - gsync/non-gsync

2 video cards - 970/1070

2 different 16GB DDR3 kits - 1 1600, 1 2400

2 different SSD's - two different brands and sizes

8 different USB slots - 3.0 and 2.0, front, mobo, pci-e card

Tried 2 different OS - 8.1 and 10

Tried a fresh install of OS, and DCS

Tried various drivers, firmware etc.

Tried different Nvidia and game settings, including vsync, gsync, no sync

Clean install of windows and DCS, including formatting all drives, three times now.

Bios updated to the latest version

Hyperthreading on/off, and various other latency, affinity tweaks (currently at default)

 

No issues with stuttering with DCS, or other 3D applications - stuttering only occurs in conjunction with trackIR/DCS

 

Can anyone think of anything else I can try?

 

Could it be my motherboard? my PSU? CPU? TrackIR hardware? - I've almost bought an entirely new machine to resolve this issue.

 

I can't replicate the problem in other games, it seems native to DCS.

 

I've had tickets with ED and with NaturalPoint, but I think they're at the point where there isn't anything else to try. It's disappointing to throw this much money and time at the problem, and still not know what the cause is, let alone how to fix it.

 

Is it possible for you to try another TrackIR receiver?

 

BTW. "Clean install of windows and DCS, including formatting all drives, three times now": this truly speaks to your dedication to the task!!! THREE re-installs ... WOW. Respect ...

[hughlb]

Haven't forgotten about you regarding the sensible testing setup. Does appear that you're pulling your hair out right now. Might be wise to take a few steps back? For your own sanity?What I mean is that nobody should spend $4000 making a $400 component work.

 

Ha, all good, I appreciate your help. I took a break for a few months, the good news is every time I return, there are new things to try. The main frustration is the cost - I could buy a new TrackIR, but it may end up on the growing pile of investments unrelated to the problem ;) I wish my friends liked simming! I'd borrow hardware.

 

Have you tried to delete the mouse binding in DCS?

 

Another thing about USB 2.0/3.0

The maximum power draw for a USB 2.0 is 500ma and 900ma for 3.0

The usual power draw for track IR is 350ma +

Some motherboards, have the USB ports coupled on the rear, try to leave the nearest free, as Kuky wrote in an old post years ago.

You can try also with a USB powered hub.

 

I tried deleting all mouse bindings in-game and in the various lua files in the config folder, but nno change.

 

I am currently running TrackIR into a powered PCI-E USB 3.0 card, with nothing else plugged into it, so it should be getting sufficient power. I also tried maximizing the Windows USB power options, but no change.

 

Is it possible for you to try another TrackIR receiver?

 

BTW. "Clean install of windows and DCS, including formatting all drives, three times now": this truly speaks to your dedication to the task!!! THREE re-installs ... WOW. Respect ...

 

I would dearly love to try another receiver. I've toyed with the idea of purchasing another TrackIR, but yeah, it's still a lot of money. I mean, if Mike at NaturalPoint said "I think your TrackIR might be faulty", I'd happily give it a shot, but there haven't been too many suggestions about a faulty unit.

 

The oddest thing is the behavior of the problem - It's linear, in that, the stuttering is consistent and directly related to the framerate in-game, regardless of graphics settings. It's the sort of thing you would see if your mouse and TrackIR were sending conflicting view inputs, or something similar. Or a monitor refresh rate / TrackIR interaction problem.

 

What I do know, is that TrackIR runs at a native 120hz, and the stuttering is solved in-game, when my framerate is at 120fps. I can't help but believe there is some sort of connection there.

 

EDIT: Okay, this is odd. When I disconnect my mouse from my computer, DCS says my TrackIR has been disconnected and I lose headtracking. Is that normal? Doesn't happen when I unplug my keyboard, just my mouse.

Edited April 30, 2017 by hughlb

[Bearfoot]

 

What I do know, is that TrackIR runs at a native 120hz, and the stuttering is solved in-game, when my framerate is at 120fps. I can't help but believe there is some sort of connection there.

 

Did you look at some of the other issues discussed in the thread, specifically these:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3120050&postcount=81

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3120288&postcount=90

 

which reference this page:

 

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/894654/help-me-fix-60-fps-stutter-issue-aka-frame-time-issue-/

 

It ties together the monitor refresh rate and the FPS causing stuttering.

 

Also, I take it where you live does not give you the option of purchasing a new TrackIR and returning it if it does not fix the issue?

[hughlb]

Did you look at some of the other issues discussed in the thread, specifically these:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3120050&postcount=81

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3120288&postcount=90

 

which reference this page:

 

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/894654/help-me-fix-60-fps-stutter-issue-aka-frame-time-issue-/

 

It ties together the monitor refresh rate and the FPS causing stuttering.

 

Also, I take it where you live does not give you the option of purchasing a new TrackIR and returning it if it does not fix the issue?

 

That sounds like possible connection. However, if is were a timing issue, then it should be occurring in other games, and it's not. It's also worth mentioning there is no stutter when panning the view with keyboard or joystick hats. If it were a general timing issue, I would expect it to be stuttering all the time, not just with TrackIR. Thoughts?

 

EDIT: I ran the Windows Timer Tool and set it to 1ms response time, which matches my monitor, but no difference in DCS. Likewise, I think I've tried before, but I disabled/enabled HPET and Hyperthreading, but no change

 

Also, sorry, I missed your last question - no, there is no return for TrackIR, it'd need to be sent overseas - in addition, my warranty has run out (although I did lodge an initial ticket with NaturalPoint during the warranty period).

Edited April 30, 2017 by hughlb