MS Sidewinder FFB2 Settings

[ebabil]

Hi guys,

I am currently triying to re-learn flying with my new (not new of course) ffb2 stick.

It is very easier to handle huey even with 2 fingers when ffb is disabled or trim force near zero.

But, force trim is almost useless when force trim is lower than 40. And it is ultra sensitive, if i make a little big movement, helicopter goes out of control easily. At this point , curve, deadzone and saturation don't seem to be effective.

 

If i set trim force to about 70-100, stick feels a rock and very hard to move, but a solid trim function.

 

Long story short, if you are using ffb2 or smilar ffb sticks, can you share your settings?

 

mine is attached

[Andrew u.k.]

Hi,

I posted a while back regarding this. The general consensus was to unplug the power and have no feedback. The real huey has none.

Since doing this it's a revelation to fly, don't worry about force trim. Give it a go, I'd be interested in what you think.

 

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

[ebabil]

Is zero trim force the same as unplugged ffb cable ?

[Andrew u.k.]

Not sure. Joystick should be loose with no feedback.

 

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

[Reflected]

Curves set to 21, force trim switched off on the central pedestal. I can hover with 2 fingers...

[Ramsay]

Long story short, if you are using ffb2 or smilar ffb sticks, can you share your settings?

 

I'm just using the default forces with my MS FFB2

• Force - 100%
  
• Shake - 50%
  
• Swap Axis CHECK
  
• Invert X - Unchecked
  
• Invert Y - Unchecked

I'm tempted to reduce the force to 50% (as it's what I use in the Gazelle) but that might be because I'm out of the habit of using the Magnetic Brake/Force Trim as I should.

 

The general consensus was to unplug the power and have no feedback. The real huey has none.

 

AFAIK the real UH-1H Huey has 'Force Gradient Units' (spring cartridges) which have a sliding ends that are locked by magnetic brakes.

• These magnetic brakes are released when the Cyclic Force Trim button is depressed, allowing the cyclic to move freely.
  
• When he Cyclic Force Trim button is released, the magnetic brakes lock the spring cartridges in place and the springs give a centring spring force (stick feel) to the cyclic.

 

Items

• 26 Magnetic brake - fore and aft
  
• 30 Force gradient — fore and aft
  
• 33 Magnetic brake — lateral
  
• 34 Force gradient — lateral

Source: Page 366, TM 55-1520-220-23-2, Aviation Unit and Intermediate Maintenance Instructions ARMY MODEL UH-1C/M HELICOPTERS

Edited May 9, 2017 by Ramsay

[Andrew u.k.]

Many thanks for the information and detailed answer. I'll add your settings.

I did think it strange that there was a force trim setting and even a little button that went up and down on the cyclic.

I'll have to readjust my flying again.

 

 

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

[ebabil]

thanks for the replies.

i made some trials from unplugged/ zero ffb to 100

without ffb, it is easier to make low alt hover (i mean a few feets), but it can only be made with 2 fingers. in this case it is also very easier to overshoot becasue even with a finger, stick travels side to side in a second.

 

100% force is a diffrerent story, hard to move stick even with full grab. sensitive manuevers are also near impossible. fetigue is un avoidible even constant trimming

 

and , with higher trim force, when i hit trim button, i feel a high "kick" effect which makes me loose control in terms of sensitivity.

 

for now, the best combo is 35-40 trim force, 2 finger hover and no trim button.

i played with saturation but didin't see its effects on handling, maybe because of low ffb level.

 

i didin't see any effects from 0 to 100 of shake effect setting at all.

[ESA Dodo]

Maybe that is not commonly know, but beside the force trim system, that you can engage or disengage as it was previously disscused, some Huey pilots add some stiffness and feeling using the cyclic control friction.

 

This is a mechanical device on the cyclic base, that you may turn to increase the stiffness and almost block the stick into the desired position (centered). I knew very few pilots that use it while flying, but some of them do it, specially while flying IFR or long straight and level cruise flights, thighten it just very slightly.

 

Collective and throttle have also friction devices, and also there is a collective elastic tie.

 

Flying the Huey without the force trim and any friction is the more common way to do it, specially if you are maneouvering the bird. It is common to use two fingers in the base of the cyclic grip to reduce undesired inputs and being more precise, while you put your forearm over your thigh to minimize movements.

 

So, anyone can adjust curves or any other setting to his will to feel at easy, not being too tricky.

 

The worst thing can still be that you don't have the full range of cyclic movement unless you retrim it, and that makes more difficult to properly perform some maneouvers like quick stops and autorrotations.

[Andrew u.k.]

Thanks for the information, very interesting that it can be set to the desired level of friction.

 

Am I right in thinking that there is no feedback from the rotor at all, unlike the control surfaces from an aileron.

 

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

[Ramsay]

Am I right in thinking that there is no feedback from the rotor at all, unlike the control surfaces from an aileron.

Pretty much, the hydraulic servo cylinders reduce the control effort and feedback forces to/from the main rotor, making control much easier (i.e. with two fingers) but also reducing feedback.

 

However if the Hydraulic servo system is turned off or fails, cyclic and collective forces can be high and PIO's (pilot induced oscillations) therefore harder to avoid/control.

TEST FLIGHT INFORMATION In July 1988, US Army Aviation Engineering Flight Activity completed an airworthiness and flight characteristics evaluation report for the UH-1H with composite main rotor blades (CMRB) installed. Included in the report were the following conclusions:

 

"Hydraulic system failure characteristics were qualitatively and quantitatively evaluated … during approaches to running landings. A slight nose-down pitching moment upon failure was controlled by an approximate 15 pound aft longitudinal force. Increased right lateral control forces coupled with the onset of some control feedback required moderate pilot compensation to prevent pilot-induced oscillation (PIO) tendencies, causing an increase in control activity."

 

"The hydraulic system failure characteristics of the UH-1H helicopter with the hub spring and CMRB installed are acceptable; however, high altitude operations could be compromised due to the high collective control force encountered without hydraulics assist, thereby restricting control travel."

Source: http://www.asias.faa.gov/pls/apex/f?p=100:17:0::NO::AP_BRIEF_RPT_VAR:CEN13FA415

[ESA Dodo]

Thanks for the information, very interesting that it can be set to the desired level of friction.

 

Am I right in thinking that there is no feedback from the rotor at all, unlike the control surfaces from an aileron.

 

Yes you are right. As stated by Ramsay, the hydraulic system gets rid of control feedback.

[Andrew u.k.]

Cheers, so just to be clear if I have no ffb (power chord unplugged) is just as realistic as having a little feedback and resistance using the trim button.

 

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

[Ramsay]

Cheers, so just to be clear if I have no ffb (power chord unplugged) is just as realistic as having a little feedback and resistance using the trim button

Sort of, IMHO it's more realistic to disable the Force Trim switch on the UH-1H centre console but both actions have the same effect.

 

Note: FFB stick forces due to disabling the Hydraulic Servo don't appear to be modelled in DCS 1.5.6.4818.

[Flagrum]

Sort of, IMHO it's more realistic to disable the Force Trim switch on the UH-1H centre console but both actions have the same effect.

 

Note: FFB stick forces due to disabling the Hydraulic Servo don't appear to be modelled in DCS 1.5.6.4818.

No servo = moving the stick needs more force, correct? How could that be modelled anyways? Ignoring the user setting and apply maximum FFB forces? And even if we would want that - what if the user has set the forces already to maximum?:smartass:

[snowsniper]

when i hit trim button, i feel a high "kick" effect which makes me loose control in terms of sensitivity.

.

 

for sure it's because you have the "back to center option" unckeck it! it's only for no FFB stick.

 

for me, I'll never go for an other joystick than FFB2, just because of the awesom Trim function for helo.

it stays where it is trimed ....sooo good.

 

( same as freeware simFFB.exe for other sim like XP11.)

 

be aware there is a sensor LED which detect if your hand is on stick. If no hand is detected ( like a Two finger hover) force feedback is off. once your hand is detected force feedback is back.

[snowsniper]

Thanks for the information, very interesting that it can be set to the desired level of friction.

 

 

with simFFB.exe you can also simulate the level of friction.

[ebabil]

for sure it's because you have the "back to center option" unckeck it! it's only for no FFB stick.

 

for me, I'll never go for an other joystick than FFB2, just because of the awesom Trim function for helo.

it stays where it is trimed ....sooo good.

 

( same as freeware simFFB.exe for other sim like XP11.)

 

be aware there is a sensor LED which detect if your hand is on stick. If no hand is detected ( like a Two finger hover) force feedback is off. once your hand is detected force feedback is back.

 

"back to center option" where is it? my trimmer mode is default

can simffb.exe thing also be used for dcs?

[Ramsay]

No servo = moving the stick needs more force, correct? How could that be modelled anyways? And even if we would want that - what if the user has set the forces already to maximum? :smartass:

 

The reason I mention that losing servo pressure has no FFB effect, is because the Hydraulic Servo Switch is on the centre console, next to the 'Force Trim' switch which does effect FFB.

 

 

Speculating:

As I'm not familiar with UH-1H cyclic stick forces with hydraulics disabled, more force would be require to move the controls than to overcome the 'Force Gradient Units' (spring cartridges) with Force Trim/magnetic brakes applied.

 

Not impossible to model (use reduced FFB forces when simulating Force Trim) but very much an edge case (forces are also offset and dependant on collective position, etc).

 

I think (like me) most users would prefer Belsimtek to refine the UH-1H engine modelling i.e. OAT, EGT, damage, etc.

[snowsniper]

"can simffb.exe thing also be used for dcs?"

 

of course. here it is, give it a try. select your "trim" button in TrimFFB

great alternative.

 

 

here it is.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1628706&postcount=43

[ebabil]

Thanks I will try.

Btw where is the back to center option?

[Ramsay]

with higher trim force, when i hit trim button, i feel a high "kick" effect which makes me loose control in terms of sensitivity.

The trim button isn't a 'centre' button, it's a 'release' button. So I 'press and hold' Force Trim when the cyclic has minimal forces, fly with loose FFB stick and once stable and level - release the 'Force Trim'. This avoids the MS FFB 'kick' as the stick force near the new central position is zero/weak. I don't know if the 'Force Gradient Units' 'kick' in real life while under tension.

 

... can simffb.exe thing also be used for dcs?

Yes,

• once in the UH-1H cockpit,
  
• Alt+Tab to desktop
  
• run simFFB (trim button can be set to use the same as DCS)
  
• simFFB takes priority over DCS and any FFB effects are from simFFB
  
• Alt+Tab to UH-1H cockpit and fly.

 

SimFFB: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2419366&postcount=152

[ESA Dodo]

Thanks I will try.

Btw where is the back to center option?

 

Left Ctrl + T

[ESA Dodo]

The reason I mention that losing servo pressure has no FFB effect, is because the Hydraulic Servo Switch is on the centre console, next to the 'Force Trim' switch which does effect FFB.

 

 

Speculating:

As I'm not familiar with UH-1H cyclic stick forces with hydraulics disabled, more force would be require to move the controls than to overcome the 'Force Gradient Units' (spring cartridges) with Force Trim/magnetic brakes applied.

 

Not impossible to model (use reduced FFB forces when simulating Force Trim) but very much an edge case (forces are also offset and dependant on collective position, etc).

 

I think (like me) most users would prefer Belsimtek to refine the UH-1H engine modelling i.e. OAT, EGT, damage, etc.

 

Hydraulic failure is not only a matter of "force required to move the controls", it has also a kind of bouncing or bumping effect, as if rotor movement is transmited to the controls. It is also very easy to overcontrol and bring the Huey into an abnormal attitude, very difficult to recover.

 

With the time, the stifness feeling becomes worse and may be necessary both pilots holding the controls. Always soft movements are required and no more than 30 min fighting the bird after failure.

 

Maybe it is not impossible but I see it is quite difficult to simulate in the home enviroment. Also pedals and collective are affected.

 

Anyway it is nice for you to apply the complete procedure as stated by the checklist.

[assafm25]

I will be more then heppy if in the end u sher your full settings u made for the FFB and uh-1.