OT: Su-37 Super Flanker (Movie)

[Earthworm]

Hi there

 

I just watched this movie about the Su-37 Super Flanker, and... It took my breath away. This is really awesome.

 

I'd like to fly one of these in LO and show the bad guys who is the real boss in the sky:pilotfly:

Well... this will never happen, but at least a man can dream ;)

 

 

 

 

 

I'm wondering what these 4 screens display by the way

 

 

[ФрогФут]

The only one Su-37 crashed a long time ago. And the program was closed. So there is no Su-37 now.:)

[Flier]

awesome movie

 

http://metacafe-serving the world's best videos go to Metacafe(website),and serch for Su-30 Flanker,it's awesome too:thumbup:

[GGTharos]

I'd like to fly one of these in LO

 

Won't happen - it's classified so ED can't get flight data on it.

 

and show the bad guys who is the real boss in the sky:pilotfly:

 

 

 

 

That would be the F-22 ;)

[Earthworm]

Won't happen - it's classified so ED can't get flight data on it.

Unfortunately yes :(

Has anyone seen the movie "Stealth"? There is a nice dogfight scene with 2 Su-37s against these UFO-Jets... It's Hollywood-like, but still pretty cool.

 

That would be the F-22

I don't think that the F-22 would beat the Su-37 in a close dogfight. It has more adventages in BVR of course. Anyway, the Su-37 is still my favorite fighter jet.

 

What about the Mig-1-42 MFI? :P

But the project was stopped. What a pity...

[GGTharos]

I don't think that the F-22 would beat the Su-37 in a close dogfight. It has more adventages in BVR of course. Anyway, the Su-37 is still my favorite fighter jet.

 

 

 

And why is that? It has vectored thrust, and the AIM-9X with JHCMS cueing for 90deg off-bore launches, not to mention the AIM-9X is being expanded to include a datalink and LOAL capabilities to enable even 180deg off-bore use. ;)

 

King of the sky is the F-22, and frankly, whatever the Su-37 -was- capable of is irrelevant since it got cancelled :)

[LaRata]

And why is that? It has vectored thrust, and the AIM-9X with JHCMS cueing for 90deg off-bore launches, not to mention the AIM-9X is being expanded to include a datalink and LOAL capabilities to enable even 180deg off-bore use. ;)

 

King of the sky is the F-22, and frankly, whatever the Su-37 -was- capable of is irrelevant since it got cancelled :)

 

 

"It has vectored thrust..." The IAF Su-30MKI has VTC ...and in the future Mig-29`s. So that superior is not only for the F-22.

 

The US, has their time running from others that has working in new technology for IR Missiles and has more potent missiles than the AIM-9M in service for long time by now.

 

Israely has very powerfull IR Missile in service by now...

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/air_missiles/python/Python5.html

 

This test for rear firing Russian R-73...

 

Have nice Christmas to all ... :)

 

Luis "LaRata" Barreto

[GGTharos]

"It has vectored thrust..." The IAF Su-30MKI has VTC ...and in the future Mig-29`s. So that superior is not only for the F-22.

 

That wasn't the point ;)

 

The US, has their time running from others that has working in new technology for IR Missiles and has more potent missiles than the AIM-9M in service for long time by now.

 

The US has no problems there right now ;) AIM-9X bridges the gap and that's basically all there is to it. It is much more advanced than R-73, and IIRC, there's currently no replacement for the poor old reticle-seeker equipped R-73.

By the way, US Phantoms were using AIM-9 with helmet sight before R-73.

 

Israely has very powerfull IR Missile in service by now...

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/air_missiles/python/Python5.html

 

Yep, and the AIM-9X is going to be very, very similar when the LOAL capability is introduced.

 

This test for rear firing Russian R-73...

 

 

... which was cancelled.

[Pilotasso]

Rear firing R-73 had severe downsides wich is one of the reasons why it was cancelled.

[GGTharos]

Yep. I'm sure they'll come up with something to Match Python5/AIM-9X eventually, these things are just a matter of time.

[RvETito]

A couple of years ago I read that they are working on a new missile project- R-74. But this is the Vympel bureau, which is in Ukraine so...

 

As for the maneuvarability... The F-22 indeed has TVC but only 2D, as we all know. But it's not the be-all and end-all in maneuverability. If we consider the F-22's FBW system the most andvanced in the world it is clear that it's aerodynamics, also quiet advanced though, couldn't give it the ability to fly the way Su-30MK and MiG-29OVT are showing routinely. The F-22's shape is optimised for two main 'modes'- supercruise and stealth. Especialy the second one impose it a lot of limitations at low speed, where the supermaneuverabilty is used. Just stealth and vortex aerodyamics are two contradicting conditions, though the Raptor proves to be the optimal decision between both areas.

 

I also find quiet inadequate to compare F-22 to MiG-29 or Su-27(and it's variants). This is brand new piece of machinery while the russian fighters are already 30 years old- deferent solutions, diferent design phylosophy. The most remarkable thing about the russian fighters are their aerodynamics. I've spoken with some aerodynamics professors in western universities about this, just to see an indipendant expert opinion- most of them said that in the aerodynamics area the russians are 15 do 20 years ahead of everybody else. There's no other explanation why 30MK and 29OVT could fly under control in every possible manner, while no other US or whatever plane is capable of doing something close. I'm not talking here about stunt actions nor combat efficiency of the maneuvers russian planes do, the word is about pure aerodynamics. The fact is that no other plane(including F-22) has shown such things simply because it's not capable of that. The raison of this is quiet obvious, it just dosn't need it. If a F-22 pilot comes to a close dogfight then he must have done many things wrong.

[p_o_d_2_2]

how does being able to do a really tight loop at really low speeds help you in combat? i can under stand how being able to point your nose in the direction of the other plane would be useful, but things like cobras just drop your airspeed to zero right? i admit that i basically know nothing compared to almost everyone on this forum, but i cant find a reason to stop your plane in midair during a dogfight. so how do these extra aerodynamics that the F-22 doesnt have help?

[RvETito]

Perhaps you should read more carefuly. I wrote that I am not talking about how or wheter this kind of flying is combat efficient. I was just pointing the fact that a 20-ton supersonic fighter can hover and spin like a helicopter. I'm not an military expert to judge what combat value such maneuvers have, I'm an aircraft engineer and in my eyes this a prove for great, or even the greatest achievement in the aerodynamics area in the last years.

[GGTharos]

Well yes, it can. It does ;)

 

You don't need 3D vectoring because a little clever FBW programming will give you most of what 3D vectoring -can- do with 2D vectoring. What you're missing is not significant in combat, I would venture to guess.

 

The F-22 is /very/ capable in close combat - it beat up F-16's and F-18's in dogfights all day long.

[tflash]

We're again in a superboring F-22 powns all thread. So to balance it: to me, the Mig-29OVT demonstrator rules! It must be the ultimate pilots' dream!

 

Anyway, TVC is an extremely important technology, since it is also a way to consume *less* fuel: by smart micro-adjustments you can fly an unstable aircraft straight without rudder and trim. Both of these induce drag and so higher fuel consumption. FBW + TVC is definitely the way to go.

 

Now it becomes even more interesting when, in future developments, this will be integrated with the integral self-defense systems of the aircraft.

In particular, a longe-range missile without ramjet motor will be outfoxed by automated last-ditch TVC manoevres steered by the aircrafts computers, triggered by the missile approach warning system.

 

It is really in the line of expectations that A2A will become WVR again sooner rather than later. Once your missile will be outside of powered flight, it will be dodged. ;)

[Pilotasso]

A couple of years ago I read that they are working on a new missile project- R-74. But this is the Vympel bureau, which is in Ukraine so...

 

As for the maneuvarability... The F-22 indeed has TVC but only 2D, as we all know. But it's not the be-all and end-all in maneuverability. If we consider the F-22's FBW system the most andvanced in the world it is clear that it's aerodynamics, also quiet advanced though, couldn't give it the ability to fly the way Su-30MK and MiG-29OVT are showing routinely. The F-22's shape is optimised for two main 'modes'- supercruise and stealth. Especialy the second one impose it a lot of limitations at low speed, where the supermaneuverabilty is used. Just stealth and vortex aerodyamics are two contradicting conditions, though the Raptor proves to be the optimal decision between both areas.

 

I also find quiet inadequate to compare F-22 to MiG-29 or Su-27(and it's variants). This is brand new piece of machinery while the russian fighters are already 30 years old- deferent solutions, diferent design phylosophy. The most remarkable thing about the russian fighters are their aerodynamics. I've spoken with some aerodynamics professors in western universities about this, just to see an indipendant expert opinion- most of them said that in the aerodynamics area the russians are 15 do 20 years ahead of everybody else. There's no other explanation why 30MK and 29OVT could fly under control in every possible manner, while no other US or whatever plane is capable of doing something close. I'm not talking here about stunt actions nor combat efficiency of the maneuvers russian planes do, the word is about pure aerodynamics. The fact is that no other plane(including F-22) has shown such things simply because it's not capable of that. The raison of this is quiet obvious, it just dosn't need it. If a F-22 pilot comes to a close dogfight then he must have done many things wrong.

 

While the F-22's TVC is indeed 2D and the OVT and the MKI is 3D, the Raptor has outdonne F-16's and 18's, sustained toneaus at 60's AOA (wich the russian birds have yet to demonstrate), by no means it tailed and cut for only certain regimes but remains equaly dangerous in all. The F-22's stealth shapes do not compromise aerodynamics in any way, thats a limitation of the first gen stealth (F-117).

 

The OVT and the MKI will do their special manuevers with the wings stalled on purpose, the TVC on the F-22 is there NOT for that purpose.

 

The RUssian birds pilots are unlikely to ever use their supermanueverability capabilities due to that fact that they effectively close down any escape window they might need due to the speed reduction, furthermore it makes them harder and slower to recover into normal envelope and give that precious time up to the opposition.

 

Im looking forward to obverve what will happen once ED goes for the next fighter SIM where (even with the absence of TVC) you can test the expanded mig-29 envelope against the F-16. As a pilot, and flying online you will see youll be afraid to slow down for that, because deep down you will feel you will be caught up and youll be right in not doing so. The only time youll be willing to pull higher AOA is when you get inside the other guys sights.

 

how does being able to do a really tight loop at really low speeds help you in combat? i can under stand how being able to point your nose in the direction of the other plane would be useful, but things like cobras just drop your airspeed to zero right? i admit that i basically know nothing compared to almost everyone on this forum, but i cant find a reason to stop your plane in midair during a dogfight. so how do these extra aerodynamics that the F-22 doesnt have help?

 

Your ignorance seems to surpass many "espert" posts. Good post. Couldnt have said it better.

 

Airtito yes I know you said aerodynamicaly speaking but I wanted to generalize before anyone takes this into such context. ;)

[EvilBivol-1]

It is really in the line of expectations that A2A will become WVR again sooner rather than later. Once your missile will be outside of powered flight, it will be dodged.

When did A2A become BVR? I mean, in actual combat engagements? ;)

[GGTharos]

Actually BVR engagements were fought over Kosovo with the longest shot being between 16nm and 20nm.

[tflash]

The RUssian birds pilots are unlikely to ever use their supermanueverability capabilities due to that fact that they effectively close down any escape window they might need due to the speed reduction, furthermore it makes them harder and slower to recover into normal envelope and give that precious time up to the opposition.

 

 

Managing speed is essential, also in air combat. The idea is that if you have strong acceleration, it can be useful to slow down abruptly to change the tactical situation, forcing an overshoot e.g.

This tactic was used by the very manoevrable Sea Harrier in the Falkland war. It is also a tactic used by Flankers and Mig-29: the Flanker can act like a super airbrake and then, using the power of its engines, accellerate back into the fight.

Quite unexpectely, the king of this all should be the Super Hornet, which has very high AOA AND has superior acceleration (not speed of course!) to F-16 and F-14.

 

You can use this also to dissappear momentarily from a bandit's radar or dodge a missile in its end-run.

 

There is no point whatsoever in denying that supermanoevrability has a value, just like stealth has. Being more manoevrable just gives you an extra option. Whether you will use it totally depends on the situation, but in combat any extra option can save your life.

 

What is right is that this is not a tactics that F-22 likely will employ, since it has most interest in keeping its speed advantage at all time.

 

For the export markets RSK Mig is considering (and it has a lot of cash now given good export successes!) offering TVC as a future upgrade is a very valid proposal I would think.

[RvETito]

The F-22 is /very/ capable in close combat - it beat up F-16's and F-18's in dogfights all day long.

 

Same goes for the 30MKI and the 29OVT with the other Su-27 and MiG-29 variants. I've seen few videos of test fights of the Su-37 against standart Su-27S and non-TVC Su-35. It was demonstrated few times in different scenarios that the Su-37 could decelerate rapidly than start making some impossible maneuvers during which the other a/c is in the center of it's HUD all the time.

[RvETito]

While the F-22's TVC is indeed 2D and the OVT and the MKI is 3D, the Raptor has outdonne F-16's and 18's, sustained toneaus at 60's AOA (wich the russian birds have yet to demonstrate)..

.

 

The OVT has demontrated controled flight at 90's AOA, what exactly you mean it has to demonstrate?

 

The OVT and the MKI will do their special manuevers with the wings stalled on purpose, the TVC on the F-22 is there NOT for that purpose.

 

That's true. The vortex aerodynamic layout of the russian planes gives them exactly that advantage- they keep on creating lift in very big AOA range.

 

The RUssian birds pilots are unlikely to ever use their supermanueverability capabilities due to that fact that they effectively close down any escape window they might need due to the speed reduction, furthermore it makes them harder and slower to recover into normal envelope and give that precious time up to the opposition.

 

I disagree. What russian TVC planes actualy showed up is that the pilot can point the nose in every possible direction with fully controlled a/c for enough time to take a shot. Moreover both the Su and the MiG can accelerate very fast, the basic 29 9-12A variant in level fligth has acceleration of 11m/s2.

 

What I'm really interested is to see are the results of test fights between Su-30MK and MiG-29OVT. That would prove or deny many things. I haven't heard of anything like that though.

[Bimbac]

Hello guys,

 

I think you are missing the point here. F-22 is designed mainly for BVR combat. That's its purpose and all its stealth, all the advanced technology and avionics is suited for this role.

 

Just consider its default operational payload: 6x AIM-120, 2x AIM-9X.

 

The standard American air-to-air combat tactics is to flood the air with AMRAAMs, that's why there was such a delay introducing a new generation of Sidewinder missiles. WVR combat was considered just as a sideshow since late 1980's by USAF, although it was also considered it's sometimes inevitable to end up in close combat and that's the reason the gun still being mounted, even improved.

[RvETito]

If a F-22 pilot comes to a close dogfight then he

must have done many things wrong.

 

;)

[p_o_d_2_2]

Hello guys,

 

I think you are missing the point here. F-22 is designed mainly for BVR combat. That's its purpose and all its stealth, all the advanced technology and avionics is suited for this role.

 

Just consider its default operational payload: 6x AIM-120, 2x AIM-9X.

 

The standard American air-to-air combat tactics is to flood the air with AMRAAMs, that's why there was such a delay introducing a new generation of Sidewinder missiles. WVR combat was considered just as a sideshow since late 1980's by USAF, although it was also considered it's sometimes inevitable to end up in close combat and that's the reason the gun still being mounted, even improved.

 

that doesn't mean that the F-22 can't be good at WVR too does it?

[p_o_d_2_2]

If a F-22 pilot comes to a close dogfight then he

must have done many things wrong.

 

 

what about in situations where the pilot has to get a visual confirmation on the other plane? didn't that happen in desert storm and that's why a lot of the air to air combat was short range?