OT: Su-37 Super Flanker (Movie)

[vistrel]

They need to get rid of that ugly blue cockpit color. Seriously/

[Bimbac]

that doesn't mean that the F-22 can't be good at WVR too does it?

 

Indeed, but the latest versions of MiG and Su aircraft are much better in this particular area, due to their superior aerodynamic features, engines and flight control systems.

 

Please keep in mind that I'm talking just about aircraft itself here, not its weapon systems. ;)

[GGTharos]

Are they really? I mean, can they do something that will give them a serious advantage over the F-22 in WVR?

 

What I'm trying to say is, you can run your email client just as well on a 700mhz computer as you can on the newest core duo ;)

[RvETito]

Are they really? I mean, can they do something that will give them a serious advantage over the F-22 in WVR?

 

Well, the ability to decelerate rapidly, then turn your nose exactly where you want with angular speed about 60 deg/s and keep it there for few seconds and then accelerate as fast as you have decelerated is a serious advantage against any oponent IMO.

[GGTharos]

The F-22 can do the same though, so ... ?

In fact it fas a monstrous TWR right now - that advantage will be mitigated once Russia builds better engines (current ones are either in prototype stage or just not very viable, IIRC) so at least for now, the F-22 is well 'on top of things' as far as acceleration goes.

And steering ain't too hard when you've got TVC ... even if it is 'only' 2D.

The decision to the 22 good WVR capabilities was not an afterthought - note that this was one of the reasons that the 23 was rejected.

USAF has plenty enough experience with being forced into WVR fights after all, they're not going to ignore this.

[wasserfall]

Just my 2cents, but i have seen many airshows in my life!

Including the SU30MK and Mig29OVT, they are currently the best in manoeverability period!

No doubt the F22 is a technologyfighter especially bvr, but close combat is the domain of the Russian fighters at this moment.

Imho though.

[Pilotasso]

.

 

The OVT has demontrated controled flight at 90's AOA, what exactly you mean it has to demonstrate?

 

 

You seem to me you cant tell the difference between sustained flight and flight under benign stall charestics, thats what the OVT and the MKI are doing. You can controll the plane then, but your doing it all at the expense of engines power.

 

The barrel roll at 60º AOA perfomed by the raptor is donne before stall occurs, otherwise it wouldnt be a toneau at all but something else.

 

.

That's true. The vortex aerodynamic layout of the russian planes gives them exactly that advantage- they keep on creating lift in very big AOA range.

 

This has to do with what I said above, its not aerodynamic flight but powered flight on engines only. The wings in those manuevers only produce drag and provide ZERO lift. Ironicaly the migs AOA for sustained flight is much reduced compared to the F-18 and the F-22. And is Similar to the F-16, thing is the Falcon will spin out of controll while the mig wont. It has a benign stall behaviour and the controll surfaces will still work when the wings are not because there arent vicious spin tendencies. Having said that the F-16 can do sharp turns where other planes would sink into forbidden high AOA, so this discussion is somewhat of relative importance depending of each planes charestics.

 

.

I disagree. What russian TVC planes actualy showed up is that the pilot can point the nose in every possible direction with fully controlled a/c for enough time to take a shot. Moreover both the Su and the MiG can accelerate very fast, the basic 29 9-12A variant in level fligth has acceleration of 11m/s2.

 

They can accelerate fast but you will see that they arent so special they will be magicaly much better than any other plane of its class so the issue still holds.

[jurinko]

The question is, can a plane burdened with few MT of fuel and loaded with tons of weapons perform the same acrobatics as in clean "air show" configuration?

 

When counting massive aerial engagements like Bekaa Valley or Desert Storm 1, how many times the pilots could use the Cobra/high AoA maneuvers and how often the stealthiness would have been of better use? I would choose stealth over the fancy acrobatics, like the speed and zoom of Corsair versus tight turn of Zeke at low speeds.

[Bimbac]

Hi there GG,

 

I was hoping that we both would have some break through the Christmas time ;)

 

But back to bussiness:

 

Do any of you guys actually know what makes a real difference in close combat? Predictability

 

If you are predictable, you are dead. I guess anybody who flies on-line will concur. So the point here is (as you undoubtebly have guesses by now) to be unpredictable. And that's where the supermaneuverability steps in. If you and your fighter are able to perform unexpected changes of speed and attitude, you will win. And this is the area where Russians are currently better in. F-22 just cannot perform maneuvers that MiG-29 OVT and Su-30MK can - because of 2-axis thrust vectoring and very sensitive FBW. Acceleration is also important, but more is the situational awareness and knowledge. If you accept your adversary's ways of combat, you will lose no matter what superaircraft you are sitting in. Always remember: It's a man, not a machine!! :) Even the almighty F-22 would be just an expensive target drone if flown by poorly trained pilot. On the other hand, MiG-21 with good pilot would make a very dangerous opponent. Trust me on this.

[Pilotasso]

Just my 2cents, but i have seen many airshows in my life!

Including the SU30MK and Mig29OVT, they are currently the best in manoeverability period!

No doubt the F22 is a technologyfighter especially bvr, but close combat is the domain of the Russian fighters at this moment.

Imho though.

 

 

Despite not being realistic LOMAC will still alow you perform impossible manuevers in a mig that the F-15 cant replicate.

 

My question is to take that theory (in general outlines of the principle only of course) and put it into practice. Youll see that youll still be shot down anyway. Because the contest that matters is still normal manueverability envelopes and expanded ones usualy are explored only when the mig is under the sights of its oponent. Furthermore it rarely works or the pilot in the mig never counts on the cobra for a snap shot. I have never seen anyone doing it successfully.

[Pilotasso]

If you are predictable, you are dead. I guess anybody who flies on-line will concur. So the point here is (as you undoubtebly have guesses by now) to be unpredictable. And that's where the supermaneuverability steps in. If you and your fighter are able to perform unexpected changes of speed and attitude, you will win.

 

Supermanuevrability will make you able to point you nose only, because russian supermanueverability implies benign stall, I.e. in the perspective of the opposing plane you may flip the plane as much as you want but youll look like standing still because youll be flying slowly and with ZERO wing lift.

 

Try my challenge of my previous post.

 

What makes me confusion is that people talk about alot of supermanuverability but they refrain to do it when it counts up there. ;)

[Bimbac]

Try my challenge of my previous post.

 

What makes me confusion is that people talk about alot of supermanuverability but they refrain to do it when it counts up there. ;)

 

Are we talking about Lock-On or real fighting here? I'm sorry but I cannot understand what you are asking about. No offense :)

[LaRata]

So the point here is (as you undoubtebly have guesses by now) to be unpredictable. And that's where the supermaneuverability steps in. If you and your fighter are able to perform unexpected changes of speed and attitude, you will win. And this is the area where Russians are currently better in. F-22 just cannot perform maneuvers that MiG-29 OVT and Su-30MK can - because of 2-axis thrust vectoring and very sensitive FBW. Acceleration is also important, but more is the situational awareness and knowledge. If you accept your adversary's ways of combat, you will lose no matter what superaircraft you are sitting in. Always remember: It's a man, not a machine!! :) Even the almighty F-22 would be just an expensive target drone if flown by poorly trained pilot. On the other hand, MiG-21 with good pilot would make a very dangerous opponent. Trust me on this.

 

Yes ...if more for man than the machine in close combat. This was the error for US pilot over Vietnam.

 

Some F-22 pilot make some error here. Any have some news from this fotos ?

 

F-22 in real problem...a SuperHornet HUD shot.

 

another...

 

 

This F-22 is loose at this time.

 

Luis "LaRata" Barreto

[GGTharos]

Hi there GG,

 

I was hoping that we both would have some break through the Christmas time ;)

 

 

Never! :D

 

But back to bussiness:

 

Do any of you guys actually know what makes a real difference in close combat? Predictability

 

If you are predictable, you are dead. I guess anybody who flies on-line will concur.

 

Quite right.

 

So the point here is (as you undoubtebly have guesses by now) to be unpredictable. And that's where the supermaneuverability steps in. If you and your fighter are able to perform unexpected changes of speed and attitude, you will win. And this is the area where Russians are currently better in. F-22 just cannot perform maneuvers that MiG-29 OVT and Su-30MK can - because of 2-axis thrust vectoring and very sensitive FBW.

 

And here I disagree. The Russian planes have slightly more freedom of motion, but the speeds they perform teir maneuvers at - well - seriously, do you think you're getting out of the way of a gun spray just because you have these?

Or are you going to drop right into someone's circle? You might stop inside an F-22's circle, but he can pull the nose up and when then? You're pretty much stuck.

My point here is that, ignoring the man, the capability of the aircrafts here isn't quite as dissimilar as you want it to be, IMHO.

Already there was an official announcement that the F-22 can 'perform all the post stall maneuvers' but more importantly it can sustain 60deg AoA -without- stalling!

 

So why all the sudden is this a small thing compared to Cobra maneuvers, TVC MiGs and Su's and all that?

 

Acceleration is also important, but more is the situational awareness and knowledge.

 

And the F-22 is /built/ to give you max SA and 'free time' :)

Most people don't realize that this is exactly what /all/ the electronics onboard that thing are about.

 

If you accept your adversary's ways of combat, you will lose no matter what superaircraft you are sitting in. Always remember: It's a man, not a machine!! :) Even the almighty F-22 would be just an expensive target drone if flown by poorly trained pilot. On the other hand, MiG-21 with good pilot would make a very dangerous opponent. Trust me on this.

 

 

Yep, quite right - after all there are a few sites out there featuring that 'Raptor in Hornet's pipper' picture ;)

[GGTharos]

Yes ...if more for man than the machine in close combat. This was the error for US pilot over Vietnam.

 

Some F-22 pilot make some error here. Any have some news from this fotos ?

 

F-22 in real problem...a SuperHornet HUD shot.

This F-22 is loose at this time.

 

Luis "LaRata" Barreto

 

 

Exactly - just like I said.

 

But also let me remind you: Here it lost *once* out of hundreds of engagements where it *won* ;)

[LaRata]

Exactly - just like I said.

 

But also let me remind you: Here it lost *once* out of hundreds of engagements where it *won* ;)

 

Yes ... But we do not know how many times the F-22 have loose in training. ;) Sure GC, we need a big Air Force to win over one single scuadron of F-22.

 

 

This another photo from the HUD of IAF Su-30Mki vs F-16.

 

Any want to share sites that we can see more photos like this ?

 

From video Su-33 vs Su-33.

 

Luis "LaRata" Barreto

[GGTharos]

Yes ... But we do not know how many times the F-22 have loose in training. ;) Sure GC, we need a big Air Force to win over one single scuadron of F-22.

 

The whole idea behind the F-22 was to make it do the work of 4 planes. It seems to have worked out well. ANd we do know that the F-22 doesn't lose a lot at all in training, at least, from teh reports I've seen. I think they even had one exercise where the F-22 ended up with a 108:0 score, but of course, we don't really know how the exercise was run, BUT ...

 

There is also a report that it snuck up and 'killed' the Red AWACS without being detected.

 

This another photo from the HUD of IAF Su-30Mki vs F-16.

 

Not surprising :D

[Bimbac]

And here I disagree. The Russian planes have slightly more freedom of motion, but the speeds they perform teir maneuvers at - well - seriously, do you think you're getting out of the way of a gun spray just because you have these? Or are you going to drop right into someone's circle? You might stop inside an F-22's circle, but he can pull the nose up and when then? You're pretty much stuck.

My point here is that, ignoring the man, the capability of the aircrafts here isn't quite as dissimilar as you want it to be, IMHO.

Already there was an official announcement that the F-22 can 'perform all the post stall maneuvers' but more importantly it can sustain 60deg AoA -without- stalling!

 

So why all the sudden is this a small thing compared to Cobra maneuvers, TVC MiGs and Su's and all that?

 

Yep, quite right - after all there are a few sites out there featuring that 'Raptor in Hornet's pipper' picture ;)

 

Well, you are right about the thing that when these "wonder maneuvers" are performed incorrectly or with wrong timing, you get served on silver plate. However, if you can control your aircraft at a very low speed (the very thing I was talking about in reference to MiG and Su), even a sustained flight at 60 deg. won't matter at all. I'd like to draw a schematic to be more clear.

 

It seems like the F-22 is your pet :) I totally agree it's a superb airplane but, as I said before, it's the pilot who wins battles, not the aircraft itself. And that's exactly all the fuss about those "Bug kill Raptor" pictures. The very experienced Super Hornet pilot got lucky (and exploited his adversary's mistakes).

 

Regards! ;)

[RvETito]

You seem to me you cant tell the difference between sustained flight and flight under benign stall charestics, thats what the OVT and the MKI are doing. You can controll the plane then, but your doing it all at the expense of engines power.

 

In the vortex aerodynamics layout of the russian fighters there's no big difference- the benign stall characteristics give them the ability of sustained flight at overcritical AOA. I'll give you an example. The MiG-21 with triangle wing has a vicious thendency of deep stalls and spins that are hard to recover when is operated at high overcritical AOA. The MiG-29 airframe(you only talk about wings but in the 29 wings create 60% lift, the rest is created by the fusellage and LERXes, the main idea of the integral aerodynamic layout) can pull much higher AOAs where the flow above the "lift area"(wing+body) becomes turbolent but in quiet different way compared to the 21. The vortexes of stalled 21 have random nature forcing it to spin while in the 29 they have a precise symetrical structure- two main powerful vortexes generated by the LERXes which are expanding downstream and interacting with the upper surface of the body and the tailfins. And that's why the 29 doesn't have a thendency to spin at high AOA and can keep on sustained flight at AOA of 50-60' which I have personally witnessed. But this is all about the aerodynamicaly stable 9-12A with mechanical controls, the OVT is totaly different case- it is unstable, it has enhanced aerodynamics(more sharp LERXes, bigger wing area, bigger elevator area, 'tooth' on the elevator LE) digital FBW plus 3D TVC. I agree that the engines are crucial factor of keeping the plane on the line but it's not possible to be otherwise when the velocity vector is almost perpendicular to the a/c body. It doesn't create just drag like you said- most important is that it creates system of predicted vortexes that in one hand keep the flow above the wing+body system symetrical and in other hand, like you pointed, interact with the controls surfaces(mostly elevator and rudder, ailerons prove not to work) giving you enough control.

 

The barrel roll at 60º AOA perfomed by the raptor is donne before stall occurs, otherwise it wouldnt be a toneau at all but something else.

 

Careful here. 60' AOA without any stall effects? I can not accept that as a serious statement. With the raptor's sharp LE and trapezoid wing shape it is very likely to expect airflow stall above the wing long before this 60'. At this high AOA it is inevidable to have highly turbolent flow and powerful vortexes generation. The goal of all designers, after the F-15, is to find the optimal interaction between these vortexes and the airframe. I believe this goes in high degree for the F-22 as well. There are just several level of the supermaneuverability and the vortex aerodynamics is one of them, I'll say at pos.N1. Next are the computers(FBW and TVC) and the engines(with or without TVC).

[ViperEagle]

Yes ... But we do not know how many times the F-22 have loose in training. ;) Sure GC, we need a big Air Force to win over one single scuadron of F-22.

 

 

This another photo from the HUD of IAF Su-30Mki vs F-16.

 

Any want to share sites that we can see more photos like this ?

 

From video Su-33 vs Su-33.

 

Luis "LaRata" Barreto

 

Maybe we could also see some pictures of the SU-30MK's and MKI's in the gun funnels and WEZ's of F-15's and F-16's? we know it happened..

 

Oh wait..thats right..because respectable AF's dont release such footage, as it largely means nothing.

 

Again, that SH vs. F-22 shot has been the cause of so much "F-22 sucks!"..I'll point out it was likely a hotshot Rhino pilot breaking the ROE's to get that. Also, a valid Kill Call is 15 frames. Or 1-3 seconds, that is not.

 

We do know that the F-22 has lost at least once in training, a F-15 got a heater kill on a F-22. That was the first time, and it was publically known.

[EvilBivol-1]

oh wait..thats right..because respectable AF's dont release such footage, as it largely means nothing.

AF's like the USAF? As in here?

[ViperEagle]

I wasnt taking a jab at the Indian Air Force.

 

I am saying that it's generally highly discouraged and forbidden to leak HUD footage, much of it is classified anyway. any AF that does that offically as a means of propaganda is a sham.

 

What IS out there is largely pilots looking to stroke their egos, which is plain not cool.

[mikoriad]

A little of topic but i figured I could get a quick answer here. I know the F-22 does not have 3d thrust vectoring, but can the engine nozzels move in pitch independantly... say one pointing up, and one pointing down to help in the roll axis? It really doesn't look like it to me in the videos I've seen. I feel like I see the stabilators flailing at low speeds inefectively trying to keep the aircraft level like the engines aren't helping any.

[GGTharos]

Yes, they can - it has been demonstrated.

 

The stabilizers to 'flail', yes - you'll see that happen a lot with FBW aircraft when they're trying to keep you out of a stall.

[LaRata]

I think they even had one exercise where the F-22 ended up with a 108:0 score, but of course, we don't really know how the exercise was run, BUT ...

 

There is also a report that it snuck up and 'killed' the Red AWACS without being detected.

 

108:0 ... How the exercise was run ??? Yes...we need more information. One F-22 do not have 108 Air to Air misiles ;) They need to land , rearm and take off 10 times ??? or we need 10 F-22 that any missiles do not fail. :)

 

 

The AWACS for Me is not to dificuld to evade and kill. In Kosovo some of the Mig-29A was not detected in time by the NATO AWACS. Equal in Iraq 1996 went the AWACS do not detect 5 x Mig-25. Other planes in 1991 fly to Iran alone. :)

 

Luis "LaRata" Barreto