ECM HOJ

[flankerbanker]

I am wondering if a ARH Missile is tracking a target in HOJ mode

the target suddenly switches off ECM,

would the missile disengage tracking and Reengage when ECM is back On?

i normally fly su27/33 and fly with ECM on when Threat has me locked up but is this then opening me to the enemy to a perfect missile kill?

so many Question go through my mind when i am about to be falling dust for the 5 hundreth time!

what is your ECM strategy?

[BiggestPig]

ECM Tactics

 

Keeping it on all the the time is a bad thing... It's probably better to not use it at all, compared to that. I use it only when someone aggressively locks on me, and maybe not even then, but only after he launches his first missile. Then I toggle it on and off few times to loose his lock.

 

Dunno if that's the one-and-only tactic, but I have to say that it's quite rare these days that radar missiles hit me :) Of course I do a lot of other things when evading, but that's a another story.

[D-Scythe]

I am wondering if a ARH Missile is tracking a target in HOJ mode

the target suddenly switches off ECM,

would the missile disengage tracking and Reengage when ECM is back On?

i normally fly su27/33 and fly with ECM on when Threat has me locked up but is this then opening me to the enemy to a perfect missile kill?

so many Question go through my mind when i am about to be falling dust for the 5 hundreth time!

what is your ECM strategy?

 

ARH missiles are capable of switching between HOJ and normal tracking, so in LOMAC, it doesn't matter if you have ECM on or off. BTW, it's actually quite easy to dodge radar missiles - just take a look at the training section of LOMAC or the tutorials on Ironhand's website on how to achieve this 100% of the time.

 

Dunno if that's the one-and-only tactic, but I have to say that it's quite rare these days that radar missiles hit me Of course I do a lot of other things when evading, but that's a another story.

 

This is probably one of the biggest beefs I have with LOMAC. Radar missiles aren't scary.

[Force_Feedback]

Unfortunately, real ECM systems are usually not set in this 'active disco ball mode', but that is one of the many differences between lomac and the real world. One of the modes could be for example to jam only the SARH guidance frequency, and not to transmit on other frequencies (so you only give away your position when you're fired upon). I'm not whining about version 1.312 or something, just wanting to point out that ecm is really, really crude in lockon.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

The main purpose of using ECM in Lock On is to deny your opponent range, velocity vector and altitude information.

 

Many players flying F-15’s complain about “ECM overuse” because they want you to turn your ECM off, so as to see your (approximate) distance, accurate velocity vector, approximate altitude (on PDT altitude is accurate) and launch (multiple missiles on multiple targets) AIM-120 without obtaining a lock.

 

So, certainly, one should not use ECM when trying the sneak attack. Russian birds can see ECM even in EOS mode. However, do not be foolish to turn your ECM off when you know F-15’s are clearly aggressive and targeting your area of flying.

 

HOJ is dangerous and you may turn ECM off to “see” if you were targeted in HOJ mode. Also, you may change your altitude and direction of flying because HOJ is not very good accurately tracking your position. Make sure you do not fly straight and level for too long if you expect your opponent launched a missile in HOJ on you.

[Force_Feedback]

My point is that ECM is nowhere near the level the avionics are... and those are pretty basic even now (note, I'm no F4 fanboi, I hate F4), you can't even define which type of radar you want to jam, and only having this magical multiband 'Hey, I'm dumb and I transmit continuousely, so everyone in a 500km range can see me', that is hardly realistic, and in my opinion, ED should have left out the jammers, rather than giving us this homing beacon option. If there will be some basic ecm moddeling in some future project, then it's ok, but in lomac, nah.

[nscode]

just wanting to point out that ecm is really, really crude in lockon.

 

I think that ecm modeling is based upon some instructions about attacking a jaming target from some very old russian manuals (about some very old jammers).

 

But I don't think we should consider IRL that much anyway when talking about LO flying (except when talking about future upgrades). We should rather accept what we have as something that is our reality, and adjust our tactics to that. When something new comes up, we redefine the way we fly. And that is actually very realistic.

[bogusheadbox]

I think that ecm modeling is based upon some instructions about attacking a jaming target from some very old russian manuals (about some very old jammers).

 

But I don't think we should consider IRL that much anyway when talking about LO flying (except when talking about future upgrades). We should rather accept what we have as something that is our reality, and adjust our tactics to that. When something new comes up, we redefine the way we fly. And that is actually very realistic.

 

Spot on. Very well said.

 

Us dedicated ground pounders need something to give us a small chance against fighters. So i am glad we have some level of ECM to use (wehter its a basic version of one or not)

[golfsierra2]

Russian birds can see ECM even in EOS mode.

 

How ?

 

ECM affects the radar, not the IRST (EOS). EOS is IR, not radar ....

[Guest IguanaKing]

The main purpose of using ECM in Lock On is to deny your opponent range, velocity vector and altitude information.

 

Many players flying F-15’s complain about “ECM overuse” because they want you to turn your ECM off, so as to see your (approximate) distance, accurate velocity vector, approximate altitude (on PDT altitude is accurate) and launch (multiple missiles on multiple targets) AIM-120 without obtaining a lock.

 

 

Nope. It doesn't have anything to do with players flying the F-15. Heh...if anything, the LOMAC Eagle driver should HOPE that his opponent turns on his jammer, it makes his shot just that much easier. What Cali, and other experienced LOMAC fliers hate about ECM over-use is when the guys on THEIR SIDE use it! Like he said, its like screaming, "I'M OVER HERE!!!" If certain threats in your AO didn't see you before, well, they SURE AS HELL see you now, and all it takes is for one nugget in your package to get crazy with his jammer. Then, the enemy points everything he has onto that bearing, you fly into a friggin' meat grinder, and everybody dies.

 

I agree 100% with nscode about the realism. It may or may not be realistic, but if it exists in LOMAC, it has to be dealt with and it CAN be defeated using proper tactics. :D

[GGTharos]

I don't tell'em 'jammer off'.

 

I tell'em 'I hope that's not a blue I just HoJed' .. tends to work ;)

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

How ?

 

ECM affects the radar, not the IRST (EOS). EOS is IR, not radar ....

If you ar in EOS mode and near by an ariplane with the ECM on, you will see an indicatior on your HUD (top left handd corner).

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Nope…D

Cool. You then fly with the jamer off all the time. I wish I am on line when you fly with your ECM off.

 

There is no point arguing any further.

[Pilotasso]

ARH missiles are capable of switching between HOJ and normal tracking, so in LOMAC, it doesn't matter if you have ECM on or off. BTW, it's actually quite easy to dodge radar missiles - just take a look at the training section of LOMAC or the tutorials on Ironhand's website on how to achieve this 100% of the time.

 

 

 

This is probably one of the biggest beefs I have with LOMAC. Radar missiles aren't scary.

 

True, radar missiles miss alot, but if you use tactics to prevent the enemy from knowing exactly where the shot is coming from they usualy get hit by them. The problem, nobody online cares much about BVR positioning and everybody knows where the shots are comming from and avoidance is donne at maximum SA.

 

Theres worse problems than missile probability of kill, like ECM jokers and IR missiles maddog, infact all fire and forget missiles in lomac can be maddogged at unrealistic ranges. The AMRAAM--is still-- used without radar effectively from over 30 miles away, infact some people (I am not going to give out names) who depend heavily of non radar assisted R-77's and AMRAAM shots. they spray up some to cover the possible airspace their oponents are more likely to travel through and then they just run away. I hope ED reduces maddog view cone to something realy narrow so it can only work under 10 miles.

 

My only hope is that they dont scream foul when BS comes out, I will bet ya there will be tons of screamers out there who will complain they cant hit much of anything anymore with 1.2

 

Morale of the story:

 

Use proper tactics, even when you know theres "shortcuts" to achieve a kill. Educate yourself not to always fly low and slow and shoot the missiles at their max range. You are bound to loose lock and loose the smi active missiles, be it R-27's or AIM-7's.

USe surprise, dont fly at the same altitude as your oponents do, because they will spot you the moment you do, and when theres no surprise nor geometrical tactics, your chances to get the kill are reduced drasticaly as your oponent knows exactly the perfect move for it. He wouldnt if he was uncertain where its comming from and forced to do manuevers that may not be ideal for that particular engagement geometry.

 

At the moment Im studying new tactics with the flanker and I must say, the R-27ER can be DEVASTATING even at long ranges if you minimize your oponents SA. By the time F-15's realize where to fire back its usualy too late.

[D-Scythe]

True, radar missiles miss alot, but if you use tactics to prevent the enemy from knowing exactly where the shot is coming from they usualy get hit by them. The problem, nobody online cares much about BVR positioning and everybody knows where the shots are comming from and avoidance is donne at maximum SA.

 

Theres worse problems than missile probability of kill, like ECM jokers and IR missiles maddog, infact all fire and forget missiles in lomac can be maddogged at unrealistic ranges. The AMRAAM--is still-- used without radar effectively from over 30 miles away, infact some people (I am not going to give out names) who depend heavily of non radar assisted R-77's and AMRAAM shots. they spray up some to cover the possible airspace their oponents are more likely to travel through and then they just run away. I hope ED reduces maddog view cone to something realy narrow so it can only work under 10 miles.

 

My only hope is that they dont scream foul when BS comes out, I will bet ya there will be tons of screamers out there who will complain they cant hit much of anything anymore with 1.2

 

Morale of the story:

 

Use proper tactics, even when you know theres "shortcuts" to achieve a kill. Educate yourself not to always fly low and slow and shoot the missiles at their max range. You are bound to loose lock and loose the smi active missiles, be it R-27's or AIM-7's.

USe surprise, dont fly at the same altitude as your oponents do, because they will spot you the moment you do, and when theres no surprise nor geometrical tactics your chances to get the kill are reduced drasticaly.

 

At the moment Im studying new tactics with the flanker and I must say, the R-27ER can be DEVASTATING even at long ranges if you minimize your oponents SA. By the time F-15's realize where to fire back its usualy too late.

 

Given two options to complete the same end, people will always take the shorter/simpler one. It's human nature. Thus, so long as radar missiles suck when employed properly (while looking down, while in the NEZ, etc.), people will always find other, simpler but less realistic means to get their kills.

 

Unfortunately, mad-dogging is one of them. Even more unfortunate is that nobody recognizes the possibility that if radar missiles were properly modelled (less autonomous search capability but much, much higher PK when cued by mothership radar) nobody will "spam" anything, since you'll just be wasting your next 7 missiles after your first one hits.

 

Look at the people who play Falcon 4.0 - everyone respects the rules of BVR combat, even though that aspect of modern air combat is arguably more realistic in Lock On.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Cool. You then fly with the jamer off all the time. I wish I am on line when you fly with your ECM off.

 

There is no point arguing any further.

 

Yup, I only use it when its really needed, so, don't worry, you'd never get close enough to find me. I'm a Hog driver, so I don't go mixing it up with fighters...not my mission. I'm sorry I can't fly with the jammer on and broadcast my position to you, but you can always find someone else that makes it that easy for you. :D

[Prophet]

If you ar in EOS mode and near by an ariplane with the ECM on, you will see an indicatior on your HUD (top left handd corner).

 

Neg, that indicates an IR signature.

[Prophet]

LOL, thats funny.

 

Seems like a good tactic...... not like the score matters much anyways hehe.

 

Course if I end up with a few hundred negative I may get banned.

 

Maybe all the server admins out there can give us their perspective :D

[GGTharos]

Having been a server admin, my -personnal- perspective is that I would like people to behave and respect the spirit of the mission.

 

That means don't TK if you can avoid it, and don't abuse LO issues when its pretty obvious the mission designer is trying to keep you from doing so.

 

For example, not to name any names, but Cali always used to fly up to one of the bases on my server lowlow and blow away the air defense. While it was a bit of a feat, I personally considered it quite inane and it seriously degraded the experience - no slam on Cali here, he just did what the game allowed him to - and he wasn't the only one.

 

As admins, getting people to behave is generally difficult - in the sense that while most people will behave, you'll run into those 1-2 (*#$&(#*&$ that will ruin it for everyone, and there's not much you can do about it.

[gundelgauk]

Whoa guys, I think what he meant was not actually launching a missile but only writing 'I hope that's not a blue I just HoJed' on team only chat and see what happens, hoping the guys would get so scared that they turned off ECM where a simple 'please turn it off' wouldn't suffice. Correct me if I'm wrong though. ;)

[GGTharos]

Whoa guys, I think what he meant was not actually launching a missile but only writing 'I hope that's not a blue I just HoJed' on team only chat and see what happens, hoping the guys would get so scared that they turned off ECM where a simple 'please turn it off' wouldn't suffice. Correct me if I'm wrong though. ;)

 

Yep, most of the time this works, but often enough someone won't do it ... and then I have zero pity for'em ;)

They can whine on team chat /all/ they want, I tell them to shut off their jammer next time so I can IFF, or stop flying so as not to be shot down again ;)

[GGTharos]

Darn, -someone- flew low. ;)

 

At one point I added a couple rings of Rolands and Stingers and you got through those too I think ;)

[GGTharos]

No, I mean low for the last stretch, not all the way.