Improve Your HOTAS

[lvlender]

Improve Your HOTAS

 

 

In my experience no matter what brand of HOTAS you have or it's cost, all HOTAS systems currently available have the same failing. They all exhibit 'stiction'.

 

 

stic•tion

Physics

noun: stiction

1. the friction that tends to prevent stationary surfaces from being

set in motion.

 

 

I've owned Microsoft, Gravis, Saitek and Thrustmaster joysticks and HOTAS systems. As I could afford it, I've upgraded to the newest and coolest only to be plagued once more with sticking controls. Even the Holy Grail of flight controllers, the Thrustmaster Cougar, disappointed me. A bit miffed, I decided search for a solution and fix the problem myself.

 

Stiction Problems Explained

 

 

Joystick Problems:

 

 

Most joysticks use traditional rigid gimbals to translate a joysticks movement into X and Y axis signals. The joystick gimbals' are generally supported in bushings.

 

Plastic bushings are almost universally chosen but, can be prone to some stiction. This stiction can be masked by the heavy resistance of gargantuan return springs (ala' Thrustmaster).

 

 

Some joysticks mount into the base using a plastic ball-in-cup connection (ala' Saitek). The joystick shaft passes through the ball to hall effect sensors mounted below the cup. Elegant in it's simplicity but, many owners of these sticks have complained about the high stiction of this design. All manner of lubricants and powdered concoctions have been tried eliminate the sticking but, the problem returns in a short period of time.

 

 

No perceived stiction is evident when joystick gimbals are supported in ball bearings. Too bad no major HOTAS manufacturer uses ball bearings.

 

Throttle Problems:

 

 

The throttle either rotates around the throttle's base in an arc or slides fore and aft in a linear plane. Whether rotating inside a large plastic bearing or sliding along a plastic rail, both styles have large contact areas. Through friction, the contact points resist initial movement and once moving, resist any change in direction. The user feels this resistance as 'stiction'.

 

 

In an attempt to reduce the annoying stiction, users loosen the throttle's tension brake. The users continuously loosen/tighten the adjustment dial looking for the magic spot where the stiction is acceptable while still holding the desired throttle position. Most of us just give up and live with a sticky throttle.

 

 

The Cure for Stiction:

 

 

I read reports that you can reduce/eliminate stiction and impart a smooth, linear, high-quality feel with damping grease of the appropriate viscosity. A few posts on the forums recommended NYOGEL 767A grease as the bingo needed. Here is a short demonstration video on grease viscosity...

 

 

In researching Nye Lubricants I discovered they manufacture greases (gels) designed to control motion, maintain accurate positioning, smooth operation, and provide touch feedback. Wow, sounds just like what is needed!

 

 

After explaining my HOTAS problems to Nye Lubricants, they were kind enough to send me some samples of greases they felt appropriate. I received a small sample quantity of different damping greases and what follows is my results.

Here is a short video on Nye Lubricants... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7ERDuXn1NM.

 

 

Nyogel 767A:

 

 

As this was the product recommended in forum posts I began here. This is a clear, heavy viscosity, synthetic grease intended for components that require a heavy level of damping. 767A is also used to reduce free motion and to quiet operating noise of loosely-fitting components.

 

 

It came delivered in a white squeeze tube. To give you a sense of it's consistency think of 5 minute mixed two-part epoxy after about 3 minutes. VERY thick and very sticky. The tenacity of the grease to remain in place is a key to reducing stiction. It doesn't squeeze out from between the components. As a grease it smoothes the movement of the parts yet, unlike regular grease, it damps (slows) the components movement. Moving the Cougar throttle after applying 767A feels like rotating a high quality Nikon lens. Sweet!

 

 

In actual use I can attest that, after my Cougar throttle was lubed with Nyogel 767A, consistent positioning of the Cougar TQS throttle was possible without the need for any throttle brake. (A different TQS may need a bit of brake depending on how much wear there is on the TQS parts.)

 

 

Nyogel 868VH:

 

 

Nye Lubricants suggested I also test their 868VH Fluorocarbon gel grease. This is a white color grease with (Teflon) particles to improve lubricity. I lubed a second TQS throttle with 868VH. This grease has almost the exact viscosity of the 767A grease but, the high percentage of Fluorocarbon (aka, Teflon) changed the lubricity to the point that about 35% brake was needed to hold the throttle in position when hands off. The throttle's resistance to movement was less than with the 767A but, didn't feel as 'cushy' . Overall, I prefer the 767A damping grease.

 

 

Conclusion

 

 

Nye Lubricants damping grease performed better than expectations. 767A damping grease greatly smoothed the throttle's action and it eliminated annoying stiction. A bonus is the grease eliminated the need for adding the additional friction of a throttle brake and therefore, further reduced wear. I expect 767A will provide really great protection against parts wear, too.

 

Any sim enthusiast that uses a joystick or HOTAS system will be amazed at how good their controls will feel after application of Nyogel 767A. I certainly hope the controller manufacturers read this article. We've been complaining about the stiction problem long enough. They need to step up and cure the problem, especially if it is as easy to cure as this.

Edited October 17, 2017 by lvlender
incorrect URL

[Sokol1_br]

Last link don't work, anyway:

 

[lvlender]

Last link don't work, anyway:

 

 

 

thanks for notifying me. The links work now.

[The LT]

Now, the million dollar question. Where can one order it if he or she is outside the US?

[hawka]

Nye grease

 

Got mine from Amazon $50 something, delivered to NZ, 50 gram tube well worth the money it completely got rid of the stiction in my throttle and I have enough left over to last a lifetime.

[Buckeye]

I ordered a 50g tube on eBay for $25 shipped a month or so ago. Decided I was going to change sticks to a VPC or VKB soon, so I never used it and sold it for $40 shipped a few days ago.

 

TL;DR: Check eBay periodically, it can be had for a decent price.

[lvlender]

Hi all,

 

finding 767A grease was a bit of a challenge. I telephoned NYE Industries directly and the receptionist gave me the contact info for a local sales rep. The sales rep was able to refer me to a retailer. The grease comes in 10, 25, 50 ml tubes. Plan on 10 ml for each HOTAS system.

 

 

Update: 10/28/2017

I just got an email today from a retailer that was out of 767A. They now have it back in stock. The URL is...

 

http://www.oveready.com/nyogel-lubricants/nyogel-767aa-damping-grease-10g-tube-/prod_421.html

Edited October 27, 2017 by lvlender

[lasvideo]

Not ALL HOTAS have stiction. I have the CH Fighter stick and it works and feels great. Ditto for Pro Throttle and Pro Pedals.

 

Was considering getting the TM Warthog when I first started simming DCS. But I do my research before making major investments. And what I read in posts from many WH owners convinced me that was not the way I wanted to go.

 

My CH products havent had a lick of problems and Im sure glad I went with them.

Edited October 25, 2017 by lasvideo

[Thadiun Okona]

Glad to see someone else on the soapbox besides me, I've spent the last 3 years talking a lot about it and making posts very much like this here and elsewhere just never posted it as its own subject :)

 

I also got a message from Oveready that they have it back in stock in those great 10g tubes, and they also have some PG44 for me to test which I requested ages ago and is much harder to find than 767a, which my first time looking for some to test in 2014 was really a saga. Every English speaking company carrying it was out besides Newtagate with their 100g tubes and shipping from the UK (I'm in USA). I talked with Nye and their rep but he only had 50 or 100g tubes for way more than other places retailed them for. Eventually I pestered enough places that requested some from Nye and Micro Tools enough to put in a minimum order req for Nye to finally fire up the grease factory and replenish the depleted world supply, which later led to Oveready and many others being able to stock it again which became the goto spots but eventually they ran out and so did most others until recently.

 

 

You tested 868V, but really the grease to compare it to is PG44 which is the 'super heavy' version of their damping grease vs 767a which is the 'heavy' version. There are potential advantages to higher viscosity, like being able to use smaller mechanisms at lower pressures to achieve the same amount of damping or being able to exceed the amount of damping possible with 767a. Not sure why they recommended 868VH it's very lightweight by comparison and likely only useful on tiny mechanisms like thumbsticks but something tells me they don't use a lot of joysticks or other input devices with long levers that human's shaky muscles are controlling.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Thadiun Okona

[Hellcat]

[TWC_SLAG]

Now that I have ordered a 10g tube of 767a, could you describe the process for applying it? Where, how much, etc. I have assumed, since this had been tested on different joysticks, that this lube would be good for the X-55 Rhino.

 

Is there a video showing the lube being applied?

 

Thanks,

[Kayos]

Mine doesn't have that problem since the joystick doesn't move (X-65F)

[Dudikoff]

I have the X-65, too, and I could definitely use a different (easier to move) grease in the throttle unit, not to mention something to keep the TM Cougar throttle unit in position.

 

So, how much of this stuff does one need? E.g. I see a 10g tube goes for 14 USD. Would that be enough for two throttles or not? Thanks.

[Buckeye]

Improve Your HOTAS

 

I have the X-65, too, and I could definitely use a different (easier to move) grease in the throttle unit, not to mention something to keep the TM Cougar throttle unit in position.

 

So, how much of this stuff does one need? E.g. I see a 10g tube goes for 14 USD. Would that be enough for two throttles or not? Thanks.

 

 

 

The rule of thumb I've read a few times is 10g to grease up one HOTAS.

 

As for the guy looking for a video on how to apply it, here is the standard video for how to re-grease (and sand/smooth) the Warthog:

 

https://youtu.be/OQOOoPdmRl8

 

Basic concepts would apply to all bases (ie where to grease and sand if necessary/applicable).

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hellcat]

Here's another with a few things added that Ronin is now recommending as well like opening up the holes on the spring plate

 

[Thadiun Okona]

Here's another with a few things added that Ronin is now recommending as well like opening up the holes on the spring plate

 

 

Holy cow I need to talk to him (we're friends) and get him to edit that part of the video. I highly recommend against making those holes any bigger than they are, it will ruin the white teflon bearing. Warthog already has issues with those getting wallowed out because teflon is soft and has high memory and the asymmetrical load leads to them getting oval'd.

 

They should be exactly 6mm and he says ream it with a 1/4" drill bit. That's 6.35mm which introduces a lot of slop as they are supposed to be a precision fit over the 6mm shafts. Once those holes get big or oval, it allows the piston to tilt badly as it's lifted and ends up a major source of sticktion, one that grease doesn't even fix.

 

tl;dr: do not ream those out with a 1/4" bit if you care about your Warthog, the tighter that fits on the shafts the better it works.

[Nanne118]

For all non-us based folks, I can report that Lewmar Winch Grease will work as well. There has been some debate over which lubricant works more effictively, but I can happily report that even the Lewmar stuff works wonders compared to the garbage that is in there by default.

 

 

I would also like to mention that in addition to the sanding that is done in the videos by Trip Rodriguez and FrankenMer Gaming, you should also consider sanding the insides of the gimbal / swivel balls and the insides surrounding the post upon which the magnet (for the hall sensor) sits. Remember that you are trying to remove most if not all the lips of plastic left to make the gimbal as a whole as smooth as possible; due to fabrication and error this can vary from stick to stick, but the smoother the better.

[Hellcat]

Holy cow I need to talk to him (we're friends) and get him to edit that part of the video. I highly recommend against making those holes any bigger than they are, it will ruin the white teflon bearing. Warthog already has issues with those getting wallowed out because teflon is soft and has high memory and the asymmetrical load leads to them getting oval'd.

 

They should be exactly 6mm and he says ream it with a 1/4" drill bit. That's 6.35mm which introduces a lot of slop as they are supposed to be a precision fit over the 6mm shafts. Once those holes get big or oval, it allows the piston to tilt badly as it's lifted and ends up a major source of sticktion, one that grease doesn't even fix.

 

tl;dr: do not ream those out with a 1/4" bit if you care about your Warthog, the tighter that fits on the shafts the better it works.

 

To be clear Ronin didn't say to ream it with a 1/4 drill bit (should have mentioned that) he said

 

Good luck and just take your time and make sure the inside ball is freely moving.also roll sand paper and sand the inside of the 4 holes in the white spacer that the mounting poles go through on that pressure plate. Just sand lightly to allow it to slide up and down better.

[Hellcat]

For all non-us based folks, I can report that Lewmar Winch Grease will work as well. There has been some debate over which lubricant works more effictively, but I can happily report that even the Lewmar stuff works wonders compared to the garbage that is in there by default.

I would also like to mention that in addition to the sanding that is done in the videos by Trip Rodriguez and FrankenMer Gaming, you should also consider sanding the insides of the gimbal / swivel balls and the insides surrounding the post upon which the magnet (for the hall sensor) sits. Remember that you are trying to remove most if not all the lips of plastic left to make the gimbal as a whole as smooth as possible; due to fabrication and error this can vary from stick to stick, but the smoother the better.

 

In the US you can Calcium Sulfonate NLGI #2 Grease pretty cheap at tractor supply ...I'm doing it today with it.

 

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/traveller-marine-off-road-calcium-sulfonate-nlgi-2-grease-14-oz-cartridge

Edited October 29, 2017 by Hellcat

[Mango]

My CH products havent had a lick of problems and Im sure glad I went with them.

 

Ditto! Had CH HOTAS for 12 or more years and no desire to use anything different.

[Bogey Jammer]

So, are all these greases including Nyogel 767A fall in the calcium sulfonate category ?

[Mars Exulte]

I have a VKB GladPro and have never experienced "stiction", but it doesn't use the same kind of spring and shaft system that most of them do.

[hawka]

X65f throttle

 

For those with the x65f I got a 50g tube and would have used about 10g and it totally changed my throttle I can honestly say there is no stiction at all,and the resistance is perfect unlike my ch gear which I find is too easy to move.

[Thadiun Okona]

So, are all these greases including Nyogel 767A fall in the calcium sulfonate category ?

 

No, that is truckstock/hardware store stuff and people are assuming viscosity equals damping. Nyogel 767a is a silica thickened heavy viscosity synthetic hydrocarbon grease, but formulated specifically for damping. It's a space age damping grease that remains very stable over a wide temperature range, where the 'breakout' pressure to move it from a standstill is nearly the same as anywhere along the moving stroke. The performance of the 2 greases in this regard (or any grease not formulated for damping) are are not really comparable even they are an improvement over the stock grease.

 

The point of op's thread is not to 'fight sticktion' but to enhance ANY joystick/throttle's ability to be manipulated precisely so those shrugging because they don't have a Warthog are kind of missing the point. Damping grease can make your stick behave better, almost as if it has real hydraulic damping in some cases. VKB found damping important enough to make that the central feature of their newest joysticks (gunfighter), though use a combination of materials in a dry condition but still speaks volumes about the importance of damping itself.

 

Applying smooth/consistent drag aka damping to lever-like devices operated by shaky human muscles has a notable positive effect on the ability to maintain precision.

 

tl;dr: If you have a joystick that has grease anywhere in it where moving parts contact, it will perform better with heavy damping grease like Nyogel 767a. Sticks with ball bearings might not have corresponding parts in contact to grease however so additional mechanics might be needed to achieve damping on those, like VKB's redesign.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Thadiun Okona

[Hellcat]

Originally Posted by lasvideo View Post

My CH products havent had a lick of problems and Im sure glad I went with them.

Ditto! Had CH HOTAS for 12 or more years and no desire to use anything different.

 

 

I had the CH Fighterstick and throttle and i much prefer the hall sensors of the warthog and all the added buttons on the throttle...sure... took a little work... but for less than $10 now my stick is buttery smooth...very happy with the results.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Hellcat