Give servers the option to remove zoom?

[Mr_sukebe]

Curious about the views here.

Currently I’m not taking part on mp servers. It’s not that I don’t want to. Rather that I wish to fly in vr and simply can’t compete with monitor users on identifying enemy aircraft (note identify, not spot).

I’ve played a little with my own monitor as a test in SP, and quite clearly, there’s a massive benefit right now for monitor users.

 

Would served owners be willing to de select an option to allow visual zoom if ED introduced it?

That would at least level the playing field somewhat.

[microvax]

You get free depth perception and better spatial awareness with VR.

 

I havent noticed having an easier or harder time in going against VR players.

Also there is a x4 VR zoom.

 

The A cant compete with B argument doesnt hold imho.

[lemoen]

Monitor users can look behind them far easier than VR users can. I think Mr_sukebe is correct, however, I won't advocate for the solution, removing zoom won't change anything.

[Nero.ger]

i dont use TrackIR or a (good)HOTAS....so...should there an option to restrict those so i am not at a disadvantage?

[Frostie]

i dont use TrackIR or a (good)HOTAS....so...should there an option to restrict those so i am not at a disadvantage?

 

Yes its called padlock amd arcade mode. :devil_2:

[metzger]

The huge zoom and 360 degrees visibility while one barely have to move his head with trackIR is almost equal to labels but labels would be the same for everyone.

 

However the solution would be to have a servers with VR enabled restriction or similar.

[firmek]

BIG NO!

The last think that the application should do is to enforce a certain view settings. What's next - enforce that everyone has to use 60 deg FOV since this is IRC what the most of VR users? Or that while playing on monitor I have to put a black curtain over my keyboard since VR guys don't see it and need a equal chances of hitting correct keys?

It's industry standard and even in such to say highly competitive games like FPS user can control the view setings as those are mostly dependend on the user personal preferences and the hardwar they have.

Removing the zoom because VR doesn't have it enforces everyone to follow the limits of devices still being in a minority.

If someone decides to use a specific equipment he should acknowlage it's limitations as it's a personal decision to use it in preference or another one.

 

And by the way, the option is already there. Mission creators can limit the zoom as also enforce other settings including FOV - which actually is a hudge issue as happens un-intentionnaly and should go away!

[metzger]

BIG NO!

The last think that the application should do is to enforce a certain view settings. What's next - enforce that everyone has to use 60 deg FOV since this is IRC what the most of VR users? Or that while playing on monitor I have to put a black curtain over my keyboard since VR guys don't see it and need a equal chances of hitting correct keys?

It's industry standard and even in such to say highly competitive games like FPS user can control the view setings as those are mostly dependend on the user personal preferences and the hardwar they have.

Removing the zoom because VR doesn't have it enforces everyone to follow the limits of devices still being in a minority.

If someone decides to use a specific equipment he should acknowlage it's limitations as it's a personal decision to use it in preference or another one.

 

And by the way, the option is already there. Mission creators can limit the zoom as also enforce other settings including FOV - which actually is a hudge issue as happens un-intentionnaly and should go away!

It is more like limiting unrealistic features than limiting a feature because a specific device doesn't has it.

 

 

But again the more suitable solution IMHO is to have an option to limit a server to VR enabled only.

 

Sent from my Redmi 4 using Tapatalk

[lemoen]

I think the player base is far too small to have limitations like this. If you play to win in PVP, use a monitor and TIR, if not, use whatever is more fun for you.

[firmek]

It is more like limiting unrealistic features than limiting a feature because a specific device doesn't has it...

Nope. The OP request is clearly to limit a specific feature as the other devices provide benefits over the other.

 

...Rather that I wish to fly in vr and simply can’t compete with monitor users on identifying enemy aircraft (note identify, not spot).

I’ve played a little with my own monitor as a test in SP, and quite clearly, there’s a massive benefit right now for monitor users.

 

Would served owners be willing to de select an option to allow visual zoom if ED introduced it?

That would at least level the playing field somewhat.

 

If the discusssion is about limiting some features bacause of unequal devices capabilities it's a big no in a PC environment. There are just too many hardware variations and of top we have to put a specific user preferences that have too feel comfortable using their PC.

Otherwise we would have to apply limits like:

- everyone has to use a single monitor as people that have 3 monitors have an advantage

- everyone has to use 27'' display as those having bigger monitors have an advantage

- everyone has to use a specific graphics card since those that get stutters and 20 FPS don't have an equal chance with guys plaing at 100 FPS

- GSYNC has to be disabled as it provides a cleaner, screen-tearing free experience which makes it easier to spot the targets

Etc.., etc.. I hope you get the point and how ridiciolous this venture is.

 

As for the zoom itself, the discussion about it is probably as old as the simulators itself:

- yes, taking it one-one it is unrealistic as people don't have a telescope in their eyes

- on the other hand it's not uncommon for pilots to be equipped with

binoculars

- due to 3D graphics generated by computer sitll being far from the quality of a real image, the spotting is hendicapped already and giving the zoom possibility in some way recompensates for it.

[firmek]

I think the player base is far too small to have limitations like this. If you play to win in PVP, use a monitor and TIR, if not, use whatever is more fun for you.

+1. Thats also extreamly important perspective. With a small player base there are already a lot of reasons why the player numbers are fragmented:

- different maps, including payable

- assets pack's - also payable

- password protected servers

I'm not saying that all of those things are bad, just stating the facts but at the end of a day if you go for instance to 2.1 and filter by open servers with players playing a Normandy, the player numbers will sadly be really small.

[MurderOne]

I fly mp in vr. I get killed...a lot more often than I make a kill. That said, while there may be some disadvantages due to resolution/system capabilities, there are advantages as well. I don't know that they necessarily even each other out, but, the important part is I have fun regardless. For instance, I can look right at a plane I'm engaged with, start maneuvering, and while "keeping eyes on", I completely lose sight of him. That's frustrating, and as an example, I was vs an M2k recently, he was clearly showing on my rwr and I was attempting to maneuver towards a solution, I could not visually see him for love nor money. Next thing, I ate the heater he just launched. Would it be great to have a few vr only servers? Sure. But we'd probably be very limited to how many players would ever be on at any given point.

[metzger]

Why for TrackIR users is a problem to not be able to have 20x zoom as it is completely unrealistic ? It is completely unrealistic. Have you seen a airliner flying at cruise altitude or 30000 feet approx 5 miles ? You barely see it as a white dot in the sky and this is with nav and strobe lights on. Now make it 4 times smaller black fighter jet with lights off. In TrackIR you can see the pilot showing you a finger from this distance.

 

Why is such a big deal for TrackIR users to accept that checking 6 like that is completely unrealistic and having some limitations that will make having a bandit on your six more realistic experience is not a bad thing ?

 

Aren't we all aiming for realistic experience and this is why we choose DCS ?

[Esac_mirmidon]

Following the logic i want:

 

Servers only with 1060 graphic cards on Normandy because people with 1080ti have a huge advantage over me with stable FPS and minimal stutters.

 

Servers only with 2500K processors or below because people with 7700K or higher has more FPS and less stutter and this is a huge advantage in combat.

 

Servers only with Sidewinder HOTAS because people with a Warthog have much more buttons and hats and can react faster than me in combat.

 

Servers with Screens below 27´ because people with wider screens have a huge advantage in size an view.

 

May i keep going or is enough?

[AbortedMan]

There already are options for server owners to limit minimum and maximum FOV to the point of no zoom (and conversely no fisheye-lens-wide FOV).

 

No servers limit FOV because it's not feasible and no one likes it. This is a video game simulating what is seen with the naked eye...monitors and modern graphics do not, can not, currently represent what a human eye can perceive. Changing FOV is a workaround for this.

 

...also, not everyone is running at the same resolution, so limiting FOV to a small range will ruin the experience for one side of the resolution spectrum (triple screen users cannot play at the same FOV as single screen users).

[metzger]

Following the logic i want:

 

Servers only with 1060 graphic cards on Normandy because people with 1080ti have a huge advantage over me with stable FPS and minimal stutters.

 

Servers only with 2500K processors or below because people with 7700K or higher has more FPS and less stutter and this is a huge advantage in combat.

 

Servers only with Sidewinder HOTAS because people with a Warthog have much more buttons and hats and can react faster than me in combat.

 

Servers with Screens below 27´ because people with wider screens have a huge advantage in size an view.

 

May i keep going or is enough?

 

Cmon this is offtopic and has nothing to do with removing unrealistic zoom or headmovement which is equally unrealistic for all kind of hardware.

 

Why don't we add labels then on all servers cause some people have smaller screens ? Labels are unrealistic and that's it most of the servers forces them off, the same can be said for zoom level. Going off topic doesn't help much.

 

There already are options for server owners to limit minimum and maximum FOV to the point of no zoom (and conversely no fisheye-lens-wide FOV).

 

No servers limit FOV because it's not feasible and no one likes it. This is a video game simulating what is seen with the naked eye...monitors and modern graphics do not, can not, currently represent what a human eye can perceive. Changing FOV is a workaround for this.

 

...also, not everyone is running at the same resolution, so limiting FOV to a small range will ruin the experience for one side of the resolution spectrum (triple screen users cannot play at the same FOV as single screen users).

 

 

EDIT:

I realize FOV and Zoom are basically same, zooming out is not an issue but zooming in should be limited to some degree. I doubt anyone is flying on smaller than 24 full HD screen or if it is it will be an exception. So limiting the zooming to levels for spoting an aircraft from realistic distances on 24 fullhd monitor Is fair and good for realism in my opinion.

Edited October 26, 2017 by metzger

[Mr_sukebe]

Ref the "fragmentation" comment. I understand where you're coming from. But consider another view. Right now, I simply won't play MP combat missions, as I consider them to be utterly pointless. So who's being marginalised at the moment?

 

 

On a more positive note, the FOV restriction looks like a potential option. Are there any MP servers willing to do this?

Asking it another way, are their any servers admins willing to configure their server with a view to the potential of it being tagged as VR friendly, and with the option of donations from VR users to help keep it running? I'd be comfortable donating and I'm guessing others would too.

[lemoen]

Ref the "fragmentation" comment. I understand where you're coming from. But consider another view. Right now, I simply won't play MP combat missions, as I consider them to be utterly pointless. So who's being marginalised at the moment?

 

 

On a more positive note, the FOV restriction looks like a potential option. Are there any MP servers willing to do this?

Asking it another way, are their any servers admins willing to configure their server with a view to the potential of it being tagged as VR friendly, and with the option of donations from VR users to help keep it running? I'd be comfortable donating and I'm guessing others would too.

 

There's a difference between monitors and VR i.t.o. competitiveness but its not case of the one is far superior to the other. Monitor + TIR people can look behind and around far easier than VR people and they can see smaller details because their displays aren't blurry. However, the VR people have a better sense of distance and maneuvering attitude and likely sense of speed which is an advantage in a dogfight. In my group we're more than 50% VR users and we resolve (harhar) some of these VR problems on MP servers with good communication. Don't think you cannot win a fight because you're in VR, you likely just need more practice.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Why is offtopic?

 

I dont really understand why TIR is more unrealistic than fighting in Normandy with parity between Axis and Allies. For example.

 

You want realism, fight MP 100 Allies vs 12 Axis. Dont use the K4 and the Dora because they never fought over Normandy, dont use the Pacific P-51D Mustang we have, is not the realistic accurated one in the European front in 1944.

 

Really this "realistic" goal for everything is the most overrated thing ever.

 

I want ACCURATED models, REALISTIC Flight Models and PRECISE terrains.

 

TIR is not more or less realistic, is only a hardware choice with pros and cons, like VR, wide screens, modern HOTAS, accurated pedals, etc.

 

PD: On a side note, you know that A-10 pilots over Kosovo where using binoculars? With zoom ¡¡¡ XDDD

Edited October 26, 2017 by Esac_mirmidon

[metzger]

It allows you to exploit camera position by looking 180 degrees backwards without moving your head and at the same time zooming into incoming bandit and flying the aircraft. Try to do this with a binoculars. It is the same reason why external views are disabled on most servers.

 

I don't see how all this is related to flight models and the number of aircrafts...

 

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[Buckeye]

Sounds like a pretty terrible idea, IMO.

[Mr_sukebe]

Frankly I don't see the issue here.

We have a host of servers running at the moment. If just one supported restricted FOV and made it easy for us to find (e.g. include "VR friendly" in the title), then I for one would be happy.

The players who want to have telescopic zoom would still have plenty of other servers to use.

 

I'm not trying to disrupt existing server play, purely ask for a location where there would be parity for those who wish it.

[Esac_mirmidon]

But that does not have anything related to realism.

 

Thats only server side options or choices. Nothing against that. People want VR only servers?

 

Thats good for me.

 

But saying TIR is not realistic. C´mon. There are thousands of things not realistic in a home flight simulator.

 

Starting with my chair.

[Frostie]

[Nero.ger]

i like swinging the pendulum back into a serious direction after that fitting picture :-D

maybe we can have the discussion again when ED delivers a realistic/usable concept for spotting "stuff". So instead of implementing a switch i would rather see them investing thier seemingly tight development time to improve the spotting system ...