Saudi F-15 shot down over Yemen

[Emu]

How are you going to get the flares between you and missile, so that missile is 90 degree to you?

 

Even when flare dispenser launch flares away from you, they fairly quickly gets left behind.

 

And with flares there is a another problem, as the IR missiles don't stop seeking after they pass the flare (or even hit it), but they will keep searching a heat source again and seek to it, until three things happens:

 

1) the missile self-destruct timer ends

2) the missile impact fuze gets triggered

3) the missile proximity fuze gets triggered

 

The 2 and 3 option doesn't get triggered by a flare, instead it requires either large metal reflection (RF fuze) or large reflection (laser fuze). And impact fuze requires large impact force.

 

That is why you do not want flare to be between you and missile, as the missile will fly past it back to you.

 

What you want is to get the flare be as close to your engine blume when you launch them, while minimizing engine power to minimum, keep your trajectory to similar to flares in the launch time that flares and engine are both "same ball park" and your engine gets blocked by flare, and then separate far and away from the flare so once the IR missile pass it, it doesn't find you again.

Depends where the missile is coming from. Climb drop the flares, and then manoeuvre over to one side if the missile is coming from below. Flying in a straight line with full aft certainly isn't the way.

 

The idea is that the missile flies past the flares and you. But you need a screen of flares between you otherwise ECCM discrimination might still be able to see you. Additionally, manoeuvring will make the missile bleed speed... unless it's still in the boost phase.

[Emu]

Again, not a source. Have you actually tried looking for info anywhere else except that article. Because if you did you would see that you find nothing on that topic, that page is the only place where it is mentioned. If that enough to convey you, okay...

Well I've shown you an article saying that it has, now you show me one saying that it hasn't.

 

 

Maybe he's popping them preemptively? Why are you so stuck on your side of the story? Is is that hard to believe?

Because my Spidey senses and every bone in my body tells me that this video is BS, plus the Yemeni rebels have a history of fictitious claims dating back to the Saudi F-16 shoot down in 2015.

 

Aside from that I've already given half a dozen or more very sound reasons.

 

 

What are you expecting? A huge explosion, shattering the plane in an epic fireball? Again, look at MANPAD intercepts, they look a lot like this...

Actually they don't. The flash from the explosion is far larger, even when not shown in IR.

 

 

And again, the idea that they were flying an F-15 close enough to the ground for a MANPADS missile to be still in the burn phase is potty. The size of the missile vapour trail relative to the F-15 also suggests that it's not a MANPADS. Just before impact, so supposedly at same distance from observer.

 

 

This is a PAC-3 vs a QF-4 for comparison.

 

 

 

That is one large MANPADS missile for sure.

Edited January 9, 2018 by Emu

[red_coreSix]

Well I've shown you an article saying that it has, now you show me one saying that it hasn't.]

 

You claimed it's common knowledge that the strike eagle has a MWS, I don't think I need to proof myself to you.

[Emu]

You claimed it's common knowledge that the strike eagle has a MWS, I don't think I need to proof myself to you.

Well normally how a debate works is one person posts evidence (article, source or whatever) and then you post counter-evidence. I've done my bit.

 

However, here is another.

 

https://theaviationist.com/2017/02/01/up-close-and-personal-with-the-first-saudi-f-15sa-the-most-advanced-eagle-ever-built/

 

Equipped with the APG-63V3 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, a digital glass cockpit, JHMCS (Joint Helmet Mouted Cueing System), Digital Electronic Warfare System/Common Missile Warning System (DEWS/CMWS), IRST (Infra Red Search and Track) system

 

And another.

 

http://www.f-15e.info/joomla/en/export-variants/f-15sa/2514-f-15sa-development

 

And another.

 

http://www.combataircraft.net/2016/08/08/what-has-happened-to-the-boeing-f-15sa/

 

etc.

 

http://www.deagel.com/news/Saudi-F-15S-Fighter-Jets-to-Get-Digital-Electronic-Warfare-and-Common-Missile-Warning-Systems_n000010217.aspx

 

ditto.

 

http://www.deagel.com/Protection-Systems/ANAAR-57-CMWS_a001337001.aspx

Edited January 9, 2018 by Emu

[red_coreSix]

And had you actually read those you would have found this:

 

"US Department of Defense announced on Apr 2, 2012, BAE Systems, Nashua, N.H., has been awarded a $366,547,000 firm-fixed-price contract for 70 Digital Electronic Warfare Systems ( DEWS)/Common Missile Warning Systems (CMWS) and spares; three DEWS/CMWS test stations and associated spares; and data. Location of performance is Nashua, N.H. Work is to be completed by Nov. 31, 2018."

 

So the F-15SA (which could well be an S or C as was mentioned before) does actually not have one...

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Typical american exceptionalism. Video shows an F-15 being hit by an ground to air missile, pilot was definitely unaware of it and those flares popped too late.

 

And Saudi Arabia is the most exceptional state in the US. :music_whistling:

[Emu]

And had you actually read those you would have found this:

 

"US Department of Defense announced on Apr 2, 2012, BAE Systems, Nashua, N.H., has been awarded a $366,547,000 firm-fixed-price contract for 70 Digital Electronic Warfare Systems ( DEWS)/Common Missile Warning Systems (CMWS) and spares; three DEWS/CMWS test stations and associated spares; and data. Location of performance is Nashua, N.H. Work is to be completed by Nov. 31, 2018."

 

So the F-15SA (which could well be an S or C as was mentioned before) does actually not have one...

Began in 2012, safe to say most planes have already got this upgraded missile warning system.

 

Anyway, stop clutching at straws. The video is obvious BS for a dozen other reasons, as already mentioned.

 

1. MANPADS aren't that big.

 

2. A missile that large does more damage, possibly edited.

 

3. F-15 flying so close to ground that missile was still in the burn phase.

 

4. Looks like test footage.

 

5. Missile seems to hit something pretty hard but where is the damage and the aircraft doesn't even seem phased at all, no change in direction, fire in the wings being shown, then video suddenly cuts.

 

6. Bad track record of source. First claimed F-16 in 2015, RSAF has no F-16s. Claimed Tornado shot down just after RSAF stated crash. This time RSAF don't even say they've lost a plane. Another garbage claim on RSAF Typhoon last October.

 

7. Is it even an F-15? Never mind what variant.

 

Clear garbage is clear garbage and the track record of the source is terrible.

Edited January 9, 2018 by Emu

[shonist]

I can clearly see him pulling up (was in dive) at start.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

And had you actually read those you would have found this:

 

"US Department of Defense announced on Apr 2, 2012, BAE Systems, Nashua, N.H., has been awarded a $366,547,000 firm-fixed-price contract for 70 Digital Electronic Warfare Systems ( DEWS)/Common Missile Warning Systems (CMWS) and spares; three DEWS/CMWS test stations and associated spares; and data. Location of performance is Nashua, N.H. Work is to be completed by Nov. 31, 2018."

 

So the F-15SA (which could well be an S or C as was mentioned before) does actually not have one...

 

 

BAE Systems indicates that the RSAF F-15SA possesses the AN/AAR-57 CMWS.

https://www.baesystems.com/en/download-en/20160817163849/1434584248887.pdf

[Pilotasso]

This makes me think it might not be a manpad.

 

That F-15 seemed pretty low, also the missile is still quite hot so any IR camera can still pick up a trail even if the motor has ended its boost phase.

[*Rage*]

There is both a trail and a 'burn time' intensity visible in that video.

[jackmckay]

This time, unfortunately, the F15 didn't produced massive lag spike to save the pilot's day. Anyway, Eagle is gone, all of it.

[razo+r]

Maybe this here?

 

Just one of a hundred speculations...

 

 

Poor eagle tho...

[Emu]

That's more likely to be able to attain the range/altitude and gain on an afterburning Eagle that fast but I would expect much more immediate damage from a 40kg warhead. How long is the burn time on an R-27?

[Airj247]

Looks fake, though it could be real. I'm surprised that I didn't hear about this till now. I'm no military expert but like many people have said, it only takes a good person at the computer to make that video. The fact it is in FLIR and not the usual cellphone Allah yelling thing seems fishy. I've also seen articles claiming it was a Tornado.

[aaron886]

It`s very easy for gamers to criticize a real pilot, if they are trying to apply their PC-knowledges to real life circumstances. I`m sure the pilot was well trained; better than most of us here.;)

 

Seriously, guys, this thread is painful.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Looks fake, though it could be real. I'm surprised that I didn't hear about this till now. I'm no military expert but like many people have said, it only takes a good person at the computer to make that video. The fact it is in FLIR and not the usual cellphone Allah yelling thing seems fishy. I've also seen articles claiming it was a Tornado.

 

Well, Iran is keen to give toys like FLIR to the Houthis. I'm on the fence about the legitimacy. Some things that Emu pointed out bugs me, but it's still irrelevant as the Saudis are out at least one F-15 either way. It's a Mudhen that isn't returning to battle.

 

The fact that the pilots got out fine is the real plus here.

[Automan]

The F-15 involved is S variant, not upgraded SA

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17486/houthi-rebels-release-flir-video-showing-shoot-down-of-saudi-f-15s

 

Not all the S variant received the upgrade to SA.

From my point of view, the pilot was totally unaware of being tracked...

[Syncolon]

Since F-15SAs are equipped with AN/ALQ-211, there could be double warning for both laser and missile approaching as well.

FLIR Ultra 8500 practically works as a laser-based rangefinder just like IRST on MIG-29s/SU-27s and the IR/laser proximity fuse part on Russian IR missiles.

I can only imagine the pilot originally set countermeasure dispense mode to AUTO, which explains why there were merely two separate counts of flare while pilot still engaging afterburner without maneuvering. Easy to understand there should be warning to activate the auto-dispense.

Well, enough warning and abundant time for notching, the pilot is the only one to blame in this case. However it is easy to be wise after the event, real life is not easy as in DCS

[Weta43]

Drifted in late, but...

 

1/What radar SAMs hit a fighter jet and leaves it intact?

=================================

 

2/Nah, looked more like the AIM-9X tests with inert warheads. Plane appears to continue unaffected.

(...)

3/The missile also seemed to take off a huge chunk of something but the aircraft just kept flying.

 

1/ Slightly OT as this doesn't seem to have been a radar guided SAM, but I guess the answer would be one with a proximity fuse or command fusing - like the kind that grounded that Israeli F-35 recently but left it able to fly home ...

 

 

2/ & 3/

 

You seem to be wanting to have it both ways ...

 

You say you can see from the video that it must be an inert missile & wouldn't have done any damage - which proves the story that it downed the aircraft is a fake, and then say the missile knocked a huge chunk off the plane but it didn't disintegrate, which proves it's a fake.

[wilky510]

like the kind that grounded that Israeli F-35 recently but left it able to fly home

How can anyone take you seriously after saying that?

 

Laughable. I knew you believed that.

 

 

Typical american exceptionalism. Video shows an F-15 being hit by an ground to air missile, pilot was definitely unaware of it and those flares popped too late.

Considering it's not even a USAF owned F-15 i don't even know how you can throw that word around like that. Talk about an agenda.

[Hummingbird]

How can anyone take you seriously after saying that?

 

Laughable. I knew you believed that.

 

 

Considering it's not even a USAF owned F-15 i don't even know how you can throw that word around like that. Talk about an agenda.

 

I think the point is that anything US made is often seen as infallible/indestructable, no less the Eagle with it's often touted xxx-0 kill/loss ratio which many people would like it to maintain.

 

To me the evidence is pretty clear, the aircraft was shot down and also listed as lost by the Saudi's themselves. That they won't admit it was to enemy action is completely expected, and something everyone seems to practice.

[GGTharos]

Worthless point. It's not the first time a strike has gone down due to a SAM.

[Weta43]

The question of which F-15 versions carry MWS systems seems redundant. Al Jazeera say it was a Tornado, and both pilots have been rescued:

A warplane from the Saudi-led military alliance fighting in Yemen has crashed after suffering a "technical failure", a coalition statement said.

However, according to rebel-run al-Masirah television, Houthi rebels claimed on Sunday they shot down the plane, a British-made Tornado fighter jet.

The aircraft went down in Saada province. The Saudi-led coalition carried out a special operation to rescue the two pilots, who both survived the crash uninjured.[/Quote]

[QuiGon]

https://theaviationist.com/2018/01/09/yemens-shiite-houthis-claim-saudi-f-15-kill-with-sam-over-capital-city-of-sanaa/

 

The aircraft then rolls right again and the profile of the F-15’s canopy can be seen, appearing to be a single-seat version, but difficult to confirm from the poor quality infra-red video.

[...]

The Royal Saudi Air Force is believed to have a fleet of 129 active single-seat F-15C Eagles and F-15S ground attack/multi-role aircraft along with the first 13 (of 84 ordered) new F-15SA attack aircraft.