Zuni Rockets

[CheckGear]

My position is similar to that of what someone said earlier - if it was in the NATOPS manual, then it should be made available and it ought to be up to the player to decide if he wants to use it or not.

 

The one exception to this rule, however, is that campaigns and missions should reflect real-world Tomcat employment. Weapons like the Zuni ought to be made available in Instant Action, custom missions, or multiplayer.

 

Can anybody post a picture of the last NATOPS manual for the F-14A/B prior to its retirement so we can see what the Tomcat was capable of employing at the time? When it comes to weapons like the AMRAAM or HARM, if the NATOPS manual didn't specifically note these weapons were employable on the Tomcat at the time ("Will Be Added in the Future" doesn't count), then they shouldn't be included. If they were, it'd have the credibility of featuring A-6Fs, all because a few of them were actually built, yet never fielded. I understand ED's desire to make the fanboys happy, but I think, for the sake of fidelity, the line has to be drawn somewhere.

[Fri13]

In 1967, a Mk 32 Zuni rocket was responsible for a serious fire aboard the USS Forrestal aircraft carrier, which led to the loss of 134 lives. A Mk 32 was also responsible for a 1969 fire on the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise, leading to the loss of 27 lives and saw 314 more injured. Fifteen aircraft were destroyed

 

Terrible losses already by accident....

[Dino Might]

If it was qualified to fly on the Tomcat, it is appropriate to include with the module.

Modern planes go through more than a million dollars of work to qualify airframes for a single weapon type. It's no longer "experimental" once all that testing is done. It's then just a question of tactical doctrine, which is entirely in the hands of the simmer. The only relevant question in all of this is, did the qual work get done?

[Atooyi]

Do you want to shoot some rockets with the cat?

 

DO IT LIKE A REAL MAN!!!!

:lol::doh:

I'm glad this stupid idea never became opertainal

 

[RaceFuel85]

Do you want to shoot some rockets with the cat?

 

DO IT LIKE A REAL MAN!!!!

:lol::doh:

I'm glad this stupid idea never became opertainal

 

 

Is that a M-117 attached to a Hawk missile body?

 

or a M-117 with a Walleye body?

[Atooyi]

Is that a M-117 attached to a Hawk missile body?

 

or a M-117 with a Walleye body?

 

First one

M-117 attached to a hawk missile rocket

[RaceFuel85]

First one

M-117 attached to a hawk missile rocket

 

Yeah..I see why you're saying it's a good thing it didn't go far...

[Sealpup]

I wonder if it will be part of the 'Crazy Iranian Loadouts' option? Assuming that is still a thing.

[Atooyi]

I wonder if it will be part of the 'Crazy Iranian Loadouts' option? Assuming that is still a thing.

 

I don't think this one would be modelled because this idea never went further than test, due to the high value of tomcats during the war ( in many cases they were not allowed to cross the border and they couldn't escort attack packages). no need to mention the dangerous nature of such a huge unguided rocket and its inaccuracy. all factors mentioned above, combined together convinced those crazy minds to stop using this idea!!!!!

[Nosferatuwhisky 1-1]

I wouldn’t want them, not going to do that style of ground attack in a Tomcat. Bombing sure, but nothing low to the ground. Save that for the Tiger and Hornet

[Nanne118]

Probably goes without asking when we are getting the Zuni's, but will smoke rockets be included? The F14 with the dual seats would make for an ideal AFAC platform

[Swordsman422]

The F14 with the dual seats would make for an ideal AFAC platform

 

Could and did, but when in the FAC(A) role, F-14s designated targets with lasers as opposed to smoke rockets.

[Silver_Dragon]

M-117, M-118, Rockeyes, etc was used on the Vietnam war to build first generation guided bombs.

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app5/paveway-1.html

[turkeydriver]

Probably goes without asking when we are getting the Zuni's, but will smoke rockets be included? The F14 with the dual seats would make for an ideal AFAC platform

 

Been fleet leaders in AFAC since 1998ish- proven in Kosovo and Desert Fox. Requested by name in Afghanistan and Iraq again up until retirement in 2006. FAC(A) trained back seaters combined with the best screen for displaying LANTIRN imagery, plus LINK-16(in the D) all Paveway and JDAMs and ROVER in the last cruise. There wasn't a better A-G platform for putting a cement warhead on a gnat's forehead. Only reason the Zuni was tested on the F_14 was for the FAC mission- I doubt HE warheads were every seriously considered then. If she was still flying, then definitely for APKWS and GATOR rounds.

[Jenrick]

Just to provide a little more info on the Zuni, as noted they are a 5" rocket. The name Zuni has only ever referred to this system, the LAU-10 is the designation for the 4 round launcher. The F-8 crusader actually just stuck them on the Sidewinder rails in a two packs (2 rockets per rail), I don't recall the designation for that off the top of my head.

 

The Zuni has a MUCH larger warhead then the Hydra series of rockets. The M151 2.75" rocket HE-Frag warhead contains 2.3lbs of Comp B explosive. The Mk 63 5" rocker HE-Frag warhead contains 15 lbs of Comp B explosive. The general description and effect of a Zuni rocket is air launched 155mm artillery shell, were the 2.75 is about an 81mm shell or so.

 

Iron bombs carry far larger amounts of explosive though. Even the lowly Mk 81 carries 96 lbs of tritonal (which is functionally the same as comp b), which is almost the full weight of a Zuni rocket (motor and warhead). The Mk 82 carries 192 lbs of tritonal. Blast effect, hands down it goes to the bombs. The actual effect on target is going to depend on fuzing, burst height, etc., but in general the larger and heavier cast bomb body is going to create larger and heavier fragments that will travel farther. A HE-Frag rocket body will create more numerous but smaller and lighter fragments that travel a lesser distance. Pretty much the same effect you see between an HE artillery shell and a hand grenade.

 

The Zuni is frequently cited as being far more accurate then the Hyrda (large rocket, larger motor, better aero?). In Vietnam for the SEAD mission Crusaders would put a pair of Zuni's in a flak pit or an SA-2 sight (individual launcher pit) and consider it a mission kill. Hyrda's are shot in at least half pod salvo's (quite often a whole pod), just to ensure they got enough rockets in the general area of the target. Even with all the whizbang computers in the AH-64 Apachge, Hyrda's are considered area effect weapons, and in general at least 6 pairs of rockets should be fired at a given area target.

 

Also DCS's damage model really nerfs Hydra's even more. A HE-Frag Hydra has a 5m-25m casualty radius (troops in cover vs troops in the open), which is largely the result of fragmentation. Which DCS doesn't model. Land a Hydra a few meters off a juicy soft target like a transport truck, no joy, it's probably not damaged. The end result is need to use far more rockets than you should need to destroy soft targets. They really don't have an advantage against soft targets compared to any of the AC cannons currently in DCS. Against hard targets that a 20mm might not do damage to a Hydra can potentially cause a kill with a direct hit. Zuni's are accurate enough to shoot a single rockets and get direct hits with, negating much of the issue with the lack of fragmentation.

 

TL/DR:

Zuni vs Hyrda- WAY bigger rocket, with WAY bigger warhead, WAY more accurate

Hydra vs Zuni- Carry WAY more of them (but you'll need them as they lack all the above)

 

-Jenrick

[turkeydriver]

F-8 dual pack was a LAU-33- also carried on F-4 Sidewinder rails by Marine Phantoms.

 

 

Just to provide a little more info on the Zuni, as noted they are a 5" rocket. The name Zuni has only ever referred to this system, the LAU-10 is the designation for the 4 round launcher. The F-8 crusader actually just stuck them on the Sidewinder rails in a two packs (2 rockets per rail), I don't recall the designation for that off the top of my head.

 

The Zuni has a MUCH larger warhead then the Hydra series of rockets. The M151 2.75" rocket HE-Frag warhead contains 2.3lbs of Comp B explosive. The Mk 63 5" rocker HE-Frag warhead contains 15 lbs of Comp B explosive. The general description and effect of a Zuni rocket is air launched 155mm artillery shell, were the 2.75 is about an 81mm shell or so.

 

Iron bombs carry far larger amounts of explosive though. Even the lowly Mk 81 carries 96 lbs of tritonal (which is functionally the same as comp b), which is almost the full weight of a Zuni rocket (motor and warhead). The Mk 82 carries 192 lbs of tritonal. Blast effect, hands down it goes to the bombs. The actual effect on target is going to depend on fuzing, burst height, etc., but in general the larger and heavier cast bomb body is going to create larger and heavier fragments that will travel farther. A HE-Frag rocket body will create more numerous but smaller and lighter fragments that travel a lesser distance. Pretty much the same effect you see between an HE artillery shell and a hand grenade.

 

The Zuni is frequently cited as being far more accurate then the Hyrda (large rocket, larger motor, better aero?). In Vietnam for the SEAD mission Crusaders would put a pair of Zuni's in a flak pit or an SA-2 sight (individual launcher pit) and consider it a mission kill. Hyrda's are shot in at least half pod salvo's (quite often a whole pod), just to ensure they got enough rockets in the general area of the target. Even with all the whizbang computers in the AH-64 Apachge, Hyrda's are considered area effect weapons, and in general at least 6 pairs of rockets should be fired at a given area target.

 

Also DCS's damage model really nerfs Hydra's even more. A HE-Frag Hydra has a 5m-25m casualty radius (troops in cover vs troops in the open), which is largely the result of fragmentation. Which DCS doesn't model. Land a Hydra a few meters off a juicy soft target like a transport truck, no joy, it's probably not damaged. The end result is need to use far more rockets than you should need to destroy soft targets. They really don't have an advantage against soft targets compared to any of the AC cannons currently in DCS. Against hard targets that a 20mm might not do damage to a Hydra can potentially cause a kill with a direct hit. Zuni's are accurate enough to shoot a single rockets and get direct hits with, negating much of the issue with the lack of fragmentation.

 

TL/DR:

Zuni vs Hyrda- WAY bigger rocket, with WAY bigger warhead, WAY more accurate

Hydra vs Zuni- Carry WAY more of them (but you'll need them as they lack all the above)

 

-Jenrick