JACN Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 May this question sounds stupid but, why most US combat choppers donґt use flares as an additional IR countermeasure?. AFAIK i.e. Apache only use the AN/ALQ-144 IR Jammer as main (and only) IR countermeasure. Even more, I think its original (and actual) location, above fuselage between the engines would be adecuate and very effective against its design intended main menaces: Aircrafts and far IR manpad/SAM batteries. But I do not think that location be any effective against new (urban) menaces as are short range belly launched iglas (all we know what/where Iґm talking about:( )...basically cause SAM seeker can even be completely out of IR jammer line of sight during all of part of its trayectory, fact which I think highly reduces its efficience. I think a redundat belly jammer and the use of the old flares system could have saved many lives :( BTW, for what Iґve heard last Igla versions are very AN/ALQ-144 resistant. My 2cents,
Anytime Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Do the have missle launch warning systems fitted or is the ALQ-144 suppose to warn the crew as well? The don't appear to be performing any evasive maneuvers. May this question sounds stupid but, why most US combat choppers don?t use flares as an additional IR countermeasure?. AFAIK i.e. Apache only use the AN/ALQ-144 IR Jammer as main (and only) IR countermeasure. Even more, I think its original (and actual) location, above fuselage between the engines would be adecuate and very effective against its design intended main menaces: Aircrafts and far IR manpod/SAM batteries. But I do not think that location be any effective against new (urban) menaces as are short range belly launched iglas (all we know what/where I?m talking about:( )...basically cause SAM seeker can even be completely out of IR jammer line of sight during all of part of its trayectory, fact which I think highly reduces its efficience. I think a redundat belly jammer and the use of the old flares system could have saved many lives :( BTW, for what I?ve heard last Igla versions are very AN/ALQ-144 resistant. My 2cents,
3Sqn_Fudd Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 The US has flares on their choppers... http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r198/Battle_Rattle/Chinnook_Flare.jpg Great pic polecat! http://3sqn.com/forum/ Here's to 1.13 -- > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0488djMDBU
Force_Feedback Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 You smoke good stuff, but so do I, hey, I know the Apache has flares, I've seen it popping them in real life, so it does have fares. The blackhawk has them too. Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy:
Anytime Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Well they're not being popped when it counts! You smoke good stuff, but so do I, hey, I know the Apache has flares, I've seen it popping them in real life, so it does have fares. The blackhawk has them too.
GGTharos Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 You have to see the missile coming, or - potentially they are not implementing IRCM over cities for fear of starting fires. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Specter1075 Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Everyone seems to be operating under the assumption that the choppers are being shot down by IR guided MANPADS. Is it not possible that small arms fire and/or unguided weapons (RPGs) are being used to greater effect? We dont know how many attempts are made against the choppers, so it could be out of 1000 shots, one gets lucky, but since it only takes 4 or 5 days for 1000 attempts, you get a chopper going down in what seems to be a frequent occurance. Maybe Im wrong...
Prophet Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 I would put my money on RPG and small arms.
GGTharos Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Some helis were reported as brought down by RPGs and small arms fire, indeed. A few went down due to MANPADS, IIRC. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
JACN Posted February 22, 2007 Author Posted February 22, 2007 RPGs, small arms?... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIlX9Uvh7og http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4WF2oECycE (what I call "belly shot") (Make yourshelf a favor...turn sound off:mad: ) From http://www.army-technology.com/projects/apache/ :book: COUNTERMEASURES The Apache is equipped with an electronic warfare suite consisting of: AN/APR-39A(V) radar warning receiver from Northrop Grumman (formerly Litton) and Lockheed Martin; Lockheed Martin AN/APR-48A Radar Frequency Interferometer Electronic Support target acquisition system; AN/ALQ-144 infra-red countermeasures set from BAE Systems IEWS (formerly Sanders, a Lockheed Martin company); AN/AVR-2 laser warning receiver from Goodrich (formerly Hughes Danbury Optical Systems then Raytheon); AN/ALQ-136(V) radar jammer developed by ITT; and chaff dispensers. US Army Longbow Apaches were to be fitted with the ITT AN/ALQ-211 SIRCM (Suite of Integrated Radio Frequency Countermeasures) suite, however the availability of funding for this project is uncertain. UK AH Mk 1 Apaches are fitted with BAE Systems Helicopter Integrated Defensive Aids Suite (HIDAS), also chosen by Kuwait and Greece. HIDAS, which includes the Sky Guardian 2000 radar warning receiver, entered service on the AH Mk 1 in July 2003. Israeli AH-64D helicopters are fitted with the Elisra Seraph self-protection system, including SPS-65 missile warner and SPJ-40 radar jammer. From the above text only chaff dispensers...no word about flares dispensers. Maybe some new Apache versions are fitted with them. Indeed anybody who have flied Longbow2 will remember that neither Apache nor Kiowa was fitted with flares dispensers in the game, and I do think that nobody better than Janeґs to know that :book:
gundelgauk Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 (Make yourshelf a favor...turn sound off:mad: ) Frankly, I've heard the same kind of heroic music as in the first vid on American news broadcasts about the wars.
Specter1075 Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Regardless of that, I would still be inclined to believe that guided weapons are far more rare than unguided. Those incidents represent a very small portion of attempts made against coalition helicopters. If guided weapons were more prevalent, then I would think we would be seeing many more losses.
Anytime Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 or better warning systems fitted. I think the Cobra's have missile warning detectors. Regardless of that, I would still be inclined to believe that guided weapons are far more rare than unguided. Those incidents represent a very small portion of attempts made against coalition helicopters. If guided weapons were more prevalent, then I would think we would be seeing many more losses.
JACN Posted February 22, 2007 Author Posted February 22, 2007 or better warning systems fitted. I think the Cobra's have missile warning detectors. Apache already has.
Anytime Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 yeah? i thought the AN/ALQ-144 is an IR jammer only (always on NO BLINKING ehehe) Apache already has.
D-Scythe Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 According to Jane's: Self-defence: Aircraft survivability equipment (ASE) consists of Litton AN/APR-39 passive RWR' date=' Sanders AN/ALQ-144 IR jammer, Raytheon AN/AVR-2 laser warning receiver, ITT AN/ALQ-136 radar jammer and chaff dispensers and Lockheed Martin AN/APR-48A radar frequency interferometer. Sanders AN/ALQ-212 Advanced Threat Infra-Red Countermeasures (ATIRCM) system and ITT AN/ALQ-211 suite of integrated RF countermeasures (SIRFC) system currently under development. ATIRCM combines next-generation directable IRCM system with Sanders AN/AAR-57 Common Missile Warning System (CMWS); SIRFC currently at EMD stage, with contractor tests on Apache Longbow undertaken in latter half of 1999, followed by operational test and evaluation from early 2000; production decision due to be taken in mid-2000.[/quote'] The AAR-57 should've been installed in the -64D for a while now...
*Rage* Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 As as aside i vaguely remember reading in Air Forces Monthly some time ago that the Missile warning system on C130's in Afghanistan were switched off due to the number of false alarms they raised when activated. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] 64th "Scorpions" Aggressor Squadron Discord: 64th Aggressor Squadron TS: 195.201.110.22
Aeroscout Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 AN/ALQ-144 Basicaly sends out i large heaty signatire, esentially filling the IR serker with and IR signal, this forcing it to miss, right? And what's the deal with chaff, isnt that shot into the Tailroater so it disperses? thanks. DCS Wishlist: 1) FIX THE DAMN RIVERS!!! 2) Spherical or cylindrical panorama view projection. 3) Enhanced input options (action upon button release, etc). 4) Aircraft flight parameter dump upon exit (stick posn, attitude, rates, accel, control volume, control-surface positions, SAS bias, etc). 5) ADS-33 maneuver courses as static objects. 6) Exposed API or exports of trim position and stick force for custom controllers. 7) Select auto multiple audio devices
gundelgauk Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 yeah? i thought the AN/ALQ-144 is an IR jammer only (always on NO BLINKING ehehe) LOL!
JACN Posted February 22, 2007 Author Posted February 22, 2007 As as aside i vaguely remember reading in Air Forces Monthly some time ago that the Missile warning system on C130's in Afghanistan were switched off due to the number of false alarms they raised when activated. I think it´d be better for crews having over-sensitive CMWS than under-sensitive ones, it makes the difference between life and death :noexpression:
JACN Posted February 22, 2007 Author Posted February 22, 2007 According to Jane's: The AAR-57 should've been installed in the -64D for a while now... Thanks D-Scythe. So no word about flares :music_whistling:
Force_Feedback Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Well, flares or not, internet knowledge aside, I've seen an AH-64D do interesting things in the air, and popping lots of flares. It shoots off two to the right and left. No flares at all http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1012546/L/ http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0902014/L/ http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0917159/L/ http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0946812/L/ Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy:
Anytime Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/07/bae-wins-14b-order-for-aircraft-irdefense-systems/index.php I doubt that it's been fitted yet to the whole fleet. Thanks D-Scythe. So no word about flares :music_whistling:
D-Scythe Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Thanks D-Scythe. So no word about flares :music_whistling: The ATIRCM includes flares, IIRC - some advanced next generation flare decoy munition or something like that. In any case, the British WAH-64D is already equipped with flares - if the U.S. Army perceives heat-seeking SAMs as a threat, I'm sure they can get their uber-lethal Apaches fitted with them ASAP (if they don't have 'em already). Excellent article about the state of Army weapons/self defense: http://www.aviationtoday.com/rw/military/attack/1534.html
Maverick-90 Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 From the above text only chaff dispensers...no word about flares dispensers. Maybe some new Apache versions are fitted with them. Indeed anybody who have flied Longbow2 will remember that neither Apache nor Kiowa was fitted with flares dispensers in the game, and I do think that nobody better than Janeґs to know that :book: so the pilots throw out some Zippos at airshows? otherwise i couldn't explain seeing those flare-like-thingies they dropped...
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