How effective is radar on NOE flight?

[KungFu]

Was doing some flying last night in the Ka-50, most of the time NOE in deep valleys. Well a 15 (player) found us somehow, new exactly where we were. There is also AWACS on this server. Was well out of the normal travel paths

 

My question is how effective is the 15 (and other aircraft) and AWACS radar? Are they impaired by ground clutter, I've heard trees/buildings will block it, but he either picked us up or was guided (very well I might add)

 

I've also been hit with 120s when barely 2m off the ground in a patch of trees and buildings.

 

I guess what I'm asking is how much does DCS radar take terrain and ground clutter into account on returns?

[feefifofum]

Impaired, yes, but at close ranges you'll still be able to be detected.

[ricktoberfest]

Helicopters are huge radar targets in real life. I assume DCS simulates the rotor radar return although like you I’ve mainly been on the receiving end of it.

 

 

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[cypc]

In my experience as a GCI in DCS, AWACS/ground radars will see you without any doubt when you pass a ridge, and sometimes in valleys depending on their positions.

Then a fighter can easily sweep the valley and get a radar contact at 2 to 5 mn.

Helos are particularly visible for radars when moving (>50kt)

[winchesterdelta1]

I do not know how it is now. But some updates ago it's very easy to pick up choppers with the F-15. Fly at 40k and scan low and you find them 90% of the time from ranges up to 70 to 80 miles. No GCI or AWACS needed for that. I actually only had issue's keeping track of them at closer range.

[lemoen]

Choppers are hard to find on radar if they move slowly, in DCS. The rotors don't seem to have any extra effect in this regard from what I've experienced, usually the lock breaks when I come to a hover.

[QuiGon]

Helos are particularly visible for radars when moving (>50kt)

This! A pulse doppler depends on the difference of speed between the target and the background, so the faster you go, the easier it is for the radar to pick you up.

[Buckeye]

Choppers are hard to find on radar if they move slowly, in DCS. The rotors don't seem to have any extra effect in this regard from what I've experienced, usually the lock breaks when I come to a hover.

 

This has been my experience as well. Choppers tend to be pretty easy to get on scope when you're further away, but as soon as you get in close on them you need to always be focused on getting a tally ASAP (tough to do in VR lol) because you're almost always going to need to switch to AACQ to fox on them...otherwise your radar is going to lose them and you're going to be in a bad spot. Pitbull AIM-120s lose them quite often as well, it's almost always better to Fox 1 or 2 instead of 3 on a low chopper.

 

Just my experience, maybe I'm working the radar incorrectly. Who knows.

[KungFu]

Thanks for the info great info guys, yeah I knew that the rotors really show a return in real life but not sure if DCS modeled it, but the <50kt speed is definitely something to keep in mind when playing ninja.

[GGTharos]

My question is how effective is the 15 (and other aircraft) and AWACS radar? Are they impaired by ground clutter, I've heard trees/buildings will block it, but he either picked us up or was guided (very well I might add)

 

Not effective enough. It should be able to see you as long as there's LOS and the rotors are spinning - as is, right now you have a bit of magical notching stealth available to you.

 

RL it will detected landed (rotors spinning) helis from 50nm - in game, as long as your motion is outside of the radar notch and there is LOS it will see you. NOE does not help at all unless you can eliminate LOS.

 

I've also been hit with 120s when barely 2m off the ground in a patch of trees and buildings.

 

Yes, they don't care about what your altitude is, nor should they. :)

 

I guess what I'm asking is how much does DCS radar take terrain and ground clutter into account on returns?

 

It does, and modern pulse-doppler radar rejects it quite easily.

[PeaceSells]

An F-15 or an Su-27 flying high enough will have line of sight on you, if they aren't too far away, no matter how low you are in the valleys. And their radar will see you. I suppose a Mirage or MiG-29 also will, but I have no experience flying these.

[streakeagle]

I think you will find radar has not been modeled particularly realistically up to now due to only LOMAC/FC2 aircraft having air-to-air capability. The MiG-21bis radar was apparently coded by the Leatherneck and has been plagued by some interesting bugs. I don't know if the upcoming F/A-18C will provide radar code available to all DCS air-to-air radars or be dedicated code only used by the F/A-18C similar to the MiG-21bis. It would be nice if ED provided common radar libraries available to all parties producing licensed addons to guarantee consistency in capabilities of various generations of radar hardware/software, but I doubt they have done so.

[KungFu]

Not effective enough. It should be able to see you as long as there's LOS and the rotors are spinning - as is, right now you have a bit of magical notching stealth available to you.

 

RL it will detected landed (rotors spinning) helis from 50nm - in game, as long as your motion is outside of the radar notch and there is LOS it will see you. NOE does not help at all unless you can eliminate LOS.

 

 

 

Yes, they don't care about what your altitude is, nor should they. :)

 

 

 

It does, and modern pulse-doppler radar rejects it quite easily.

 

Thank for the great info, What I meant by the 2m off the deck comment was I was hovering at night in a small town with buildings/trees on all sides and the 15 that fired the 120 was fresh and rather low, but even if he had just the slightest few degrees from what it sounds like with the PD radar, nothing much I could do about that.

[GGTharos]

Well, our simulator is nowhere near as complex as real life - I don't know about buildings (the radar return is different) but 120's have demonstrated hitting low flying cruise missiles directly.

 

I don't think buildings actually block radar LOS with the current radar implementation but I'm not sure about that - you might want to test thoroughly with a buddy.

 

Thank for the great info, What I meant by the 2m off the deck comment was I was hovering at night in a small town with buildings/trees on all sides and the 15 that fired the 120 was fresh and rather low, but even if he had just the slightest few degrees from what it sounds like with the PD radar, nothing much I could do about that.

[BitMaster]

Life as a helicopter pilot can be frustrating on servers if the A2A guys don't give you cover.

 

With <50knts you never get anywhere on those large maps. You can try to fly slow in high risc areas but i prefer to cross them as fast and low as possible and then hide again, avoiding LOS.

[BaD CrC]

When flying with player F15 on MP server, either you are flying in the middle of the trees (which is a lot more dangerous now they are collideable), and/or you are flying a Mistral gazelle. Gazelles are really hard to acquire visually, and Mistral version can easily shoot an F15, which make F15 pilots a little bit more respectful with choppers.

[KungFu]

Well, our simulator is nowhere near as complex as real life - I don't know about buildings (the radar return is different) but 120's have demonstrated hitting low flying cruise missiles directly.

 

I don't think buildings actually block radar LOS with the current radar implementation but I'm not sure about that - you might want to test thoroughly with a buddy.

 

Did a little testing with the 2000c (I don't have the 15) and some AI ka-50s that I set to specific flight parameters. I set one at 30ft and 30kts over water and could not pick him up when he was perpendicular to my track (as expected, but that also could have been operator error, however i could pick him up when on his 6 at 20 miles and I was using HFR mode which if I read correctly should not be the best at slow moving / slow closure rate targets. Not sure how the radar compares to the 15 (I'm guessing the 2000c's is not as good).

 

Granted I knew exactly where he was and it still took some work to find him I imagine if I used other radar modes made for slower contacts I could have found him quicker, but I've only had the 2000c for a few days and still learning.

 

Not the most comprehensive test and I know there is a bungload of other parameters , but does show <50kts that I've read in other posts is a myth at least with the 2000c's radar.

Edited April 3, 2018 by KungFu

[GGTharos]

Did a little testing with the 2000c (I don't have the 15) and some AI ka-50s that I set to specific flight parameters. I set one at 30ft and 30kts over water and could not pick him up when he was perpendicular to my track (as expected, but that also could have been operator error, however i could pick him up when on his 6 at 20 miles and I was using HFR mode which if I read correctly should not be the best at slow moving / slow closure rate targets. Not sure how the radar compares to the 15 (I'm guessing the 2000c's is not as good).

 

It's probably somewhat similar. Should be using BFR for initial detection probably. In any case, the notch value drops when you get really close, it's not constant. I don't recall the exact numbers though.

 

Granted I knew exactly where he was and it still took some work to find him I imagine if I used other radar modes made for slower contacts I could have found him quicker, but I've only had the 2000c for a few days and still learning.

 

Not the most comprehensive test and I know there is a bungload of other parameters , but does show <50kts that I've read in other posts is a myth at least with the 2000c's radar.

 

Yes, may want to re-check that ... I'll check with the eagle if I remember to. The two implementations may not exactly coincide in parameters.

[KungFu]

Yeah, it's harder to do more "scientific method" tests than I thought and I probably spoke too soon about some of my tests as the AI did not stay within my parameters I tried to remove unknown variables and got this:

 

it seems the m2000c doing 500kts at 10k ft head on can pick up a ka-50 doing 80kts at 100ft at around 25-26nm, at 75kts it won't see it at all. (constantly lowering the antenna elev until passing)

 

M2000C doing 500kts, on the six of ka-50 doing 100kts will not see it until around 10nm (no matter what radar mode)

 

M2000C doing 500kts on the six of ka-50 doing 150kts will pick it up at 10nm

 

So the 10nm seems to be an aspect thing maybe, speed of ka-50 didn't seem to matter on detection range.

 

I have yet to see a difference in detection using the different modes, but that could also be my current ignorance lol. But what is apparent is that it's not that easy to locate a heli in a 2000c even when you know exactly where it is.

[GGTharos]

Yes, it is an aspect thing.