The biggest mistake in military aviation history?

[S77th-GOYA]

This thread isn't about Napoleon invading Russia?

 

Or Troy and that big wooden horse?

[skinners]

Except the F-15's combat record? ;)

 

If you say so.:music_whistling:

[Groove]

Except the F-15's combat record? ;)

 

I see the thunderstorm is coming near :D

 

Once i saw an 30+ pages forum battle between some russian and an us american fighting over this topic. The russian tried to convince the us guy that one Israeli F-15 was shot down in the middle east. Well, in the end its always the same - thread locked ^^

 

Btw, did the F-15 ever fought against some real competitors on the hostile side ? Im just curious.

[skinners]

I see the thunderstorm is coming near :D

 

Once i saw an 30+ pages forum battle between some russian and an us american fighting over this topic. The russian tried to convince the us guy that one Israeli F-15 was shot down in the middle east. Well, in the end its always the same - thread locked ^^

 

Btw, did the F-15 ever fought against some real competitors on the hostile side ? Im just curious.

 

Was it the su-47 berkut vs F-22 Raptor thread?

[*Rage*]

Fourthly: Russia is developing a 5th generation stealth fighter to counter the F 22. I don't know if the project is still going on or has been canceled.

In my opinion this aircraft does not even need to be a match for the F 22. All it need is the capability of outclassing non stealth 5th generation fighters like Rafael, Grippen, Eurofighter, etc. (Look first, shoot first capability over these aircraft.).

In my opinion, such a goal would be achievable (To beat non stealth 5th generation fighters in BVR combat.).

 

In Air Forces Monthly March 07 theres an article stating something to the effect of that Russia and India are cooperating on a fifth generation fighter with a signed agreement to follow shortly.

 

First planned flight is expected 2009.

 

Would be interesting to see which party contributes what to the new project (Indian finances/manufacturing, Russian know how/tech?)

[britgliderpilot]

Btw, did the F-15 ever fought against some real competitors on the hostile side ? Im just curious.

 

 

What would "a real competitor" be?

 

Most of the middle Eastern wars have been against older tech aircraft.

 

Seems there's equal numbers of people who whine about that and people who whine that the aircraft doesn't make a difference. Shrug.

 

 

F-15s did shoot down at least one MiG-29 over the Balkans, but again you'll get people saying it was unfair for one reason or another.

 

Also remember that training and an integrated war machine are part of the equation - a country with F-15s backed up by AWACS, datalink, and 300 pilot training hours a year would most likely wipe the floor with a country equipped with F-15 but which could only afford 30 pilot training hours a year.

[Groove]

Was it the su-47 berkut vs F-22 Raptor thread?

 

No it was Isreali F-15 shot down by an syrian (iirc) fighter.

[Groove]

What would "a real competitor" be?

 

Most of the middle Eastern wars have been against older tech aircraft.

 

Seems there's equal numbers of people who whine about that and people who whine that the aircraft doesn't make a difference. Shrug.

 

 

F-15s did shoot down at least one MiG-29 over the Balkans, but again you'll get people saying it was unfair for one reason or another.

 

Also remember that training and an integrated war machine are part of the equation - a country with F-15s backed up by AWACS, datalink, and 300 pilot training hours a year would most likely wipe the floor with a country equipped with F-15 but which could only afford 30 pilot training hours a year.

 

Did i whined or asked a simple question ? War is never fair, be sure i know this too.

[britgliderpilot]

Did i whined or asked a simple question ? War is never fair, be sure i know this too.

 

Just a general observation, no accusations here ;)

[Boneski]

Why is it that the snacks are so high here?

 

5.75 for popcorn?

 

What if I had some M&M's???

 

$7.75??? Dang!! $2 dollars extra for a bag with maybe

20 M&M's in it???

 

Tell you what... I will just have a Bottled water and

and a pack of gum.... 4.25??

 

But if I upsize the water with a Large Water it will be 4.75???

 

The Price Break is A Water, M&M's and Popcorn for

$8.75! $9.75 if you include the pack of gum...

 

Okay... I will get that Combo with the gum! :doh:

 

:pilotfly:

[Pilotasso]

F-22 is not a mistake, all previous gen planes capabilities are augmented yes, but it has others, when I get home Ill write down some of those, but it has some more that are classified.

 

I recieved word that russia has just cleared the aproval for the construction of the first few PAK-FA so called 5th gen prototypes scheduled to fly in 2010. But its a different plane, given the restraints of economical difficulties and the fact that the studies were on hold for years, to be resumed recently, and the fact russia is behind the west in electronics, I wont expect it to be a counter to F-22, but rather more aimed at more friendly budget western aircraft like the rafale, and Eurofighter... even then we are not sure how far it will go tecnnicaly for that purpose, specialy when russia is still stuck with catching up with basic modern ARH BVR missiles, with the ramjet R-77 to be likely an entirely new missile thats not even clear how and if it will be achieved anytime soon.

 

SO lets not jump into conclusions that it will be a Raptor killer. PErsonaly I dont think so because of the reasons above and how fast Russia is pressing the type compared to the 20 years of development in the west and incomparable higher budget and dev resources.

[GGTharos]

So basically the F-22 is "invisible" to older radars on all angles ? Or just head-on ?

 

'Older'? What do you mean by 'older?'. All angles, ALL fire control radars, new and old, /plus/ active IR suppression.

[S77th-GOYA]

Can an F-22 radar see an F-22?

 

If an F-22 crashed in a forest, would any of the trees know?

 

Two F-22s walk into a bar...

[Groove]

Cali are u biased ? ;)

[britgliderpilot]

Can an F-22 radar see an F-22?

 

If an F-22 crashed in a forest, would any of the trees know?

 

Two F-22s walk into a bar...

 

But the million-dollar question . . . . .

 

 

Who would win in a fight between an F-22 and Chuck Norris?

[Arthonon]

Can an F-22 radar see an F-22?

 

If an F-22 crashed in a forest, would any of the trees know?

 

Two F-22s walk into a bar...

 

 

Classic! :thumbup::lol:

[Groove]

Okay Cali could you please tell me the art of asking questions about the F-22 without being called kind of flame-war seeker / starter ?

 

GG, did i understood your posting right that the F-22 is all aspect stealth against almost all radars ?

[FanBoy2006.01]

I'm not quite following your logic here . . . .

 

 

You're saying that the F-22 being better than everyone else is going to cause a war between the nations with aircraft of lower capability?

 

 

For the record, the Russians can't afford a new aircraft, let alone a stealthy one. Seen their air force spending recently?

 

No, I am saying that the lack of F 22's in the world might cause war.

 

 

Here is basically what I am saying:

 

 

Only the USA has F 22's. So if another country can produce a decent stealth aircraft that is sold throughout the world this will cause a problem for other countries who does not have stealth aircraft.

 

 

If one look at what happened at the Cuban Missile Crisis. The USA nearly invaded Cuba because the USSR deployed IRBM's on Cuban soil. This posed a major threat to the USA. If the USSR launched nuclear missiles from Cuba on the USA they would have achieved total surprise. This situation was unacceptable to the USA and that led to the standoff that nearly ended in nuclear war.

 

 

So imagine that Pakistan and India is having a major standoff (Like many times in the past.). But this time India has stealth aircraft that are capable of hitting targets inside Pakistan without any warning. I don't know the particulars of either country's nuclear arsenal. But let us say for instance that Pakistan will only launch nuclear weapons if directly ordered by certain military and government officials.

So if India can launch pinpoint strikes on the Pakistani government and communications facilities. (Parliament, Microwave towers, etc) they could paralyze the whole Pakistani government.

In such a (I know it is fictitious but it is an example.) scenario Pakistan might decide it is better to launch a preemptive strike on India's airbases that has stealth aircraft (With nukes or whatever.) than to wait for India to decapitate their leadership.

 

 

Before you say that it is crazy I must point out that apparently the heads of the US military wanted to launch a major strike on Cuba but President Kennedy vetoed the decision.

 

 

P.S. My original post had very little to do with the F 22!

 

 

I am just saying, the USA has harnessed stealth technology. One could ignore it (Because it is so expensive.). But if one day your enemy has it; well that might just be the day of your demise.

[GGTharos]

GG, did i understood your posting right that the F-22 is all aspect stealth against almost all radars ?

 

Basically yes, and if you want a deeper explanation PM me or find me on 44th TS (though not today)

[britgliderpilot]

So you're saying that stealth gives the ability to give a devastating first strike?

 

Well yes . . . . but I don't see how gaining that ability leads directly to war.

 

 

Your Cuban missile case is a bit of a moot point - the USA had missiles in Turkey, next door to the USSR, before the USSR put missiles in Cuba.

 

In this case the USA had the decisive first strike capability - it didn't use it.

 

Neither has the USA started a war purely because it had the F-117 or the B-2.

 

 

Yes, you should try and prevent your enemy from obtaining a decisive first strike weapon before you - but that's what foreign intelligence is about, keeping abreast of a nation's progress in that area. It still goes on, y'know.

[britgliderpilot]

No offense intended toward anyone in this thread, but it sure seems like any time an Air Force gets its rear-end handed to it in an actual war, its because that Air Force was a joke and anybody could have done the same thing to them. ;)

 

yuo lie!1!!

 

it's also the result of evil oppressors and unfair sanctions that prevent weapons parts from being imported into the country, thus aircraft are unservicable, making it unfair!1!!!

 

 

Read Venik's site much?

[hitman]

Im chuggin my 40oz of milk in delight of this thread. My computer will own the F-22 constantly and repeatedly. Why? cuz my drivers are updated. Im firing my uber 1337 missile to pwn the bird. Numbah 3 mode? Damn skippy.

[TucksonSonny]

Am i the only guy around thinking the F-22 is overrated ?

 

Count me in too :D

For the moment the F22 is probably just a buggy disaster running on beta software and it can almost certainly operate (read stay airborne) if you switch off about 70% of the systems.

Anyway I believe that they can still save the project after injecting another trillion $ :helpsmilie: .

[OldFrankHog]

Yes I'm sure they would put a buggy aircraft in service with 70% of its systems off that can barely fly...I mean after all who cares about risking pilots lifes and hundreeds of millions of dollars in technologie. :noexpression:

 

I get the point that it could be seen as a threat for an enemy country to aquire a stealth aircraft when you dont have one...but Im pretty sure no one would start bombing that country because they "might attack us with no reason with their ubber planes"...honestly

[pschelchshorn]

does the F-22 have a tailhook???

 

:D:D:D:D :beer: Cheers @ Iguana King, Hitman and the rest who know EXACTLY what i mean :D

 

 

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