<10m tracking limit? (aka Amraam immunity mode)

[Frostie]

I assure you there are some players who dont have a problem shooting a non evading sub-10m su33

Infact I kind of enjoyed it.:P

[Ice]

So did I. Allways love a challenge. Being outnumbered and outgunned is the only way to fly.

[Frostie]

:D Im sure I'll get mine.

[S77th-GOYA]

You mean just plain old fire within parameters and no track? I suspect they bite off on chaff off the rail.

 

No, that would mean they track something. The missiles do this outside the range at which they would go semi-active. So they should go to the point towards which launching a/c expects the locked a/c to be. Plus any updates the launching a/c might send the missile. In LO, they just fly ballistically.

[GGTharos]

We're not talking about aircraft flying under 20m AGL though right?

[S77th-GOYA]

We're not talking about aircraft flying under 20m AGL though right?

 

That is one of the times it happens. Another is when the locked a/c is near beam.

[GGTharos]

I agree with you that the weapons should be tracking.

[Anytime]

Nothing a bit of low level turbulence wouldn't fix! or the occasional flying fish :)

[Rhen]

IT'S A GAME!

 

Those people who understand reality and it's differences with lomac will always classify this as a game & not a sim when it pertains to air combat.

 

Keep telling the kids that there's nothing wrong with lomac, it's your tactics that need adjustment.

 

Poor missile logic, and radar modeling that's a mere shadow of proper function will skew tactics far distant from real life.

 

Any argument that says in one breath that "lomac gets it right" then ends with "WTF are you complaining about, just fly this way instead & you'll still get the same result" just reinforces that this simulates nothing.

 

Learning tactics that only the stupid (IRL) would try and then translating that to RL or a SIM that models RL closer than lomac will get you virtually killed. If the game forced us to utilize RL tactics, then it wouldn't be a game, now would it?

[GGTharos]

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Rhen again ...

 

Damnit, I must be like a scrooge.

[Ice]

Those people who understand reality and it's differences with lomac will always classify this as a game & not a sim when it pertains to air combat.

 

Keep telling the kids that there's nothing wrong with lomac, it's your tactics that need adjustment.

 

Poor missile logic, and radar modeling that's a mere shadow of proper function will skew tactics far distant from real life.

 

Any argument that says in one breath that "lomac gets it right" then ends with "WTF are you complaining about, just fly this way instead & you'll still get the same result" just reinforces that this simulates nothing.

 

Learning tactics that only the stupid (IRL) would try and then translating that to RL or a SIM that models RL closer than lomac will get you virtually killed. If the game forced us to utilize RL tactics, then it wouldn't be a game, now would it?

 

I think I get the jist of what you are saying.. Well Part of it.

 

And I agree. I like to think of Lomac as a sim but I also understand that it will never perfectly represent Real Life. I believe there's a middle ground with Lock On.

 

Im one of those who makes the most of what I have. I never yearn over a patch or theorise on how much better its going to make a sim. Or like some do with Sims\Games that arent even close to release, fantasise how unbelievably fantastic it will be when they are. You only set yourself up to be let down.

 

Sure Id like to see rolling seas and turbulence online. more realistic radars, the list goes on. Whilst it isnt there I will fly below 10 metres if it gets me closer to the target. Why? because I can and it takes practice and a little bit of skill. not to mention I get 4000 points when I take out that Ticonderoga :lol:

 

My suggestion is rather than whinge about it. Do something about it just like the 504 did yesterday. It might involve tactics that arent in a textbook. but hey!. the beauty of LockOn online more so than the "simulation" IMO is the online competition. Someone comes up with a new tactic. come up with another that will beat it.

 

We should be thankful that after 4 years, no one has yet managed to hack the code like they did janes sims.

[D-Scythe]

I like to think of Lomac as a sim but I also understand that it will never perfectly represent Real Life. I believe there's a middle ground with Lock On.

 

Nobody's asking for a perfect representation of real life - you'll need a Tray to run that sim. But Lock On should be coded in a way to force players to use realistic tactics rather than these artificial ones.

 

You don't need a perfect sim to do that. If someone decides to fly below 10 m, punish them by coding random damage that "simulates" ingestion of foreign objects into the engines, etc. You don't have to code for every single pebble on the ground and bird in the air. Or better yet, just let radar missiles track aircraft down to zero - in the end, it's more realistic that way anyway, because the newest missiles track the target's doppler signature. And even a truck going at 70 mph would generate enough doppler for the F-15 to detect with its radar.

 

Sure Id like to see rolling seas and turbulence online. more realistic radars, the list goes on. Whilst it isnt there I will fly below 10 metres if it gets me closer to the target. Why? because I can and it takes practice and a little bit of skill. not to mention I get 4000 points when I take out that Ticonderoga :lol:

 

Then practice on your own time. Fly for the virtual Thunderbirds or Blue Angels.

 

For those that want to play realistically, nothing is a bigger buzz-kill than having that one guy come in at 10 m to take out that friendly Ticonderoga cruiser when in reality anything within 20 nm of that ship would be dead upon detection.

 

My suggestion is rather than whinge about it. Do something about it just like the 504 did yesterday. It might involve tactics that arent in a textbook. but hey!. the beauty of LockOn online more so than the "simulation" IMO is the online competition. Someone comes up with a new tactic. come up with another that will beat it.

 

Since when has competition been an acceptable replacement for realism? Hell, if that's the case, I wonder why doesn't everyone just play Counter Strike? Or Battlefield 2?

 

Lock On is a *simulation*. If you cannot use tactics from the textbook, then you're playing a game, not a sim.

 

We should be thankful that after 4 years, no one has yet managed to hack the code like they did janes sims.

 

What? Nobody has ever "hacked" the great Jane's sims: LB2, F-15 and F/A-18.

[Ice]

Yes janes F18 was hacked and Janes F15. The rest i wont get dragged into.

 

I will respond on one other thing. Whether I choose to play LockOn online as a game for competition or as a sim for realism thats my business and well within the laws of "fair play".

 

What someone else chooses to do or considers realistic is their business.

[Ice]

Thought this was interesting.. from here

 

Proximity fuses can be a cause of grief to missileers as they hinder tracking of low level targets, often triggering off terrain, buildings or ship masts (and almost certainly represent the cause of most of the bomb damage sustained by Tripoli and Benghazi last April...).

 

Short-range AAMs have lethal radii of the order of 20-30ft, whereas large SAMs of the order of 150ft

[tflash]

On the "below 10 m thing", I guess the main problem is that the FM does not render buffeting as it should.

 

When flying an A-10A yesterday on VVS server, the only thing I could imagine to escape a barrage of missiles fired by hordes of Su-33/Mig-29 was flying very low (not below 10 meters I guess, I would have hit the ground) and following the river valleys.

 

Does anyone know of a better tactic? Maybe better coordination with the F-15 party?

[Pilotasso]

Heres my method (but of course from the moment any 10m exploiters are educated on this, it might get harder :D ):

 

At 25 miles stop flying straight at him, you should have a significant altitude displacement by then, somewhere 25-30000 feet, speed never under mach 0.9 (you must have a siginficant amount of speed to execute the moves described below). Put him on the corner of the radar, the contact should read under 100 feet as in 0.1 in the radar (measured in thousands of feet). There will be a time where TWS mode wont cope with the look down angle so swich to STT and dip your nose slightly to keep the lock (he cant match that without spoiling the exploit) then 2 scenarios can occur:

 

1) if hes locked onto you try break lock by turning without loosing yours (use the memory mode timely if you want to turn outside the radars viewcone). When your close enough he either will continue fly at 10m or be forced to turn and/or come up to aquire (or re-aquire, or maintain lock on) you. The moment he does that fire an ARH missile and dodge the hell out spending some altitude to one of his sides (never to run away directly in front of him because you will die) and dumping chaff and flares continiously before he fires, but keep an eye on him because if he turns defensive after your shot you can turn right back into him for a second if needed.

 

2)If, instead he passes under you without coming up, do a split S downwards with brakes on, engage the gun and fire over his nose (that should get his attention). If he climbs to turn and run away, fire a missile to his tailpipe, if he doesnt then turn him into fish food with the gun.

 

Remenber whenever you follow this or not, every time you force him to roll and turn to lock you up his altitude HAS to increase over 10m, when he does, that 10m tactic is spoiled, is up to you to keep a lock untill that happens at the same time you managed your escape window to outrun his missiles after you launched yours.

[Ice]

Im shakin in my rudder pedals now. Good reply Pilot as usual.

[tflash]

Would take me some practice to do that Pilotasso!

 

But I was thinking about the CAS aircraft: what can they do besides using terrain masking and fly as low as it gets? Is it not normal they try to use the 10 meters exploit?

[Pilotasso]

Over terrain it is easy for them to get a nice little acidental suicide while doing that, just lock them up on STT and wait to make them nervous and prone to execute mistakes. Just make sure you stay away from their noses, to avoid an r-73 bore upset. But remenber if they have escort forget the CAS aircraft.

[GiGurra]

Using this with HMS+eos+ET/ER pretty much makes you invincible over water against f15s, even with those tactics, pilot, I dont think it would work.

[bogusheadbox]

Using this with HMS+eos+ET/ER pretty much makes you invincible over water against f15s, even with those tactics, pilot, I dont think it would work.

 

I don't think so. It just means that maybe f-15 pilots may need to work in teams instead of being a solo - pawn everything death machine.

 

[disclaimer]

 

Any sarcasm or aggrandising in relation to the topic and referrences made in either rebuttal or agreeance are purely subjective to the thought processes of an Australian and hereby subject to poetic licence.

[GGTharos]

Fact is that ED is looking to make the simulation realistic - as such anything that anyone finds out which might enhance realism, let'em know.

 

As for the fuzes, Ice, I already mentioned those ... -and- the solution to those.

 

Really funny thing is - heaters have as much trouble against low flying aircraft as radar missiles do, realistically, since you're getting a nice 'therma ground bounce', not to mention fuze issues ... you would WANT a radar missile in that case since it can shape its trajectory to avoid the problem.

[GiGurra]

I don't think so. It just means that maybe f-15 pilots may need to work in teams instead of being a solo - pawn everything death machine.

 

[disclaimer]

 

Any sarcasm or aggrandising in relation to the topic and referrences made in either rebuttal or agreeance are purely subjective to the thought processes of an Australian and hereby subject to poetic licence.

 

Sry for not saying so earlier, I was interested in the 1v1 sit.

[GGTharos]

I believe F-15C pilots are trained to work in situations where they are outnumbered, not the other way around.

[GiGurra]

Fact is that ED is looking to make the simulation realistic - as such anything that anyone finds out which might enhance realism, let'em know.

 

As for the fuzes, Ice, I already mentioned those ... -and- the solution to those.

 

Really funny thing is - heaters have as much trouble against low flying aircraft as radar missiles do, realistically, since you're getting a nice 'therma ground bounce', not to mention fuze issues ... you would WANT a radar missile in that case since it can shape its trajectory to avoid the problem.

 

Uh oh. I could fill a few pages with possible exploits, but would it be a bad idea to post here in the forums?

Fact of the matter is that I dont use them, but I could if I wanted to. Unfortunately if I post em here someone is probably gonna end up using some. Should I post anyway?:music_whistling: