PointCTRL - Finger Mounted VR Controller

[MilesD]

Miles can you explain the idea behind the calibration? Is it to find the edges and then scale the hand motion to that distance. Seems to me that "point to a cursor", without any feedback as to where you are pointing, has a lot of variability that can not be accounted for. IMHO it would be better to say point to OSB1 on the left MFD and then point to OSB1 on the right MFD with a visible cursor. Knowing the geometry of the front panel would help scale better. again IMHO. Maybe a different scale for each cockpit? For me personally I do not like to stretch out my arms to push a button but just move my hand left/right to align the visible cursor over a button.

 

Sometimes the cursor is a little twitchy, would a "Dead Zone" help this?

 

Can a scale factor be added to slow down how fast the cursor moves?

 

Again all of this IMHO, just food for thought..We are all good:)

 

That's a good question FarmerTom. I've been wanted to include a picture in the manual for a while illustrating the simple geometric relationships, and why we calibrate. While I like your thinking about scaling the panel it does not correlate well to what we are specifically trying to achieve.

 

As far as your arms being outstretched, do what ever is comfortable for you, I don't extend my arms all the way, I calibrate where my hands feel like they would be touching the panel and controllers in front of me. In my case that's slightly bent.

 

It really does help me with muscle memory and immersion when I use my hands at the distance where I perceive the the panel or switch I am interacting with to be. It's what I have worked so hard to make PointCTRL feel like with a 2d mouse. I do cheat on some of the switches low on the center panels of aircraft that are hard to reach.

 

I will do a quick sketch that may may things more clear,

 

Thanks and don't take offense at Mariner, I know him well, and he has been a huge help to me, that's just his default conversational Marine Speak.

[mariner3302]

I shit you not.. the next time I see the good idea fairy, I am going to send a Sparrow straight up its ass! Lmao

Improve on it? Maybe that's a good starting point for PC 2.0 but for now- production ship, production ship!

Defensive? Uh noooooo..... just trying to .. screw it.. never mind... lol

Edited July 21, 2019 by mariner3302

[MilesD]

Miles can you explain the idea behind the calibration? Is it to find the edges and then scale the hand motion to that distance. Seems to me that "point to a cursor", without any feedback as to where you are pointing, has a lot of variability that can not be accounted for. IMHO it would be better to say point to OSB1 on the left MFD and then point to OSB1 on the right MFD with a visible cursor. Knowing the geometry of the front panel would help scale better. again IMHO. Maybe a different scale for each cockpit? For me personally I do not like to stretch out my arms to push a button but just move my hand left/right to align the visible cursor over a button.

 

Sometimes the cursor is a little twitchy, would a "Dead Zone" help this?

 

Can a scale factor be added to slow down how fast the cursor moves?

 

Again all of this IMHO, just food for thought..We are all good:)

 

Hey FarmerTom,

 

I don't know if this pic makes any sense, but it gives a general idea why we have to calibrate to ensure the cursor moves to where we are pointing. We should not have any feedback, if we did, it would just show a cursor that was not aligned with our finger. I have used a few different methods but this seems to give the best results. When completed the position of your arm should align with the cursor in any cockpit since we are mapping the the global FOV of the V/R environment to global FOV of HMS. I hope that helps.

 

I do have one that works completely different that I will probably add in the future as an alternate method that you can select when the GUI is done. Just make sure you calibrate with your hand at a distance from the HMS where you will usually use it in the cockpit and you should be good.

[MilesD]

I shit you not.. the next time I see the good idea fairy, I am going to send a Sparrow straight up its ass!

 

He's an angry Elf

 

"insert Miles Finch clip"

[AKA_Clutter]

Hi,

 

I am having problems with PointCTRL. I have the latest firmware version installed and have been through the calibration process three different times, including the Edge calibration process. It isn’t a problem with the calibration process or getting the FCUs to work in game. I think it has to do with the PointCTRL going outside the window and “loosing focus”.

 

Here is what I am seeing. I go into a DCS FA-18 mission get it up and running and use the FCUs to flick some switches. After a bit, I notice the “ESC” key doesn’t work, some of my HOTAS keyboard command aren’t working as (e.g., nosewheel steering). At first ALT-TAB will cycle thro8ugh the open windows. Once I select the open DCS window, all works fine, for a while. When the key board isn’t working, the FCUs still work to flip switches and such. After a while, the keyboard stops working altogether even after I exit DCS. I have had to reboot to get keyboard input back.

 

I did do a test where I point out of the cockpit at my 9 o'clock and clicked on the runway. When I did that, the ESC key didn't work.

 

I thought this might be because I hadn’t calibrated the windowed constraints correctly. I have done that twice since. I have noticed that in this step of the calibration procedure, I see three flashing cursors on each side of the screen. These don’t seem to appear that I bring the cursors closer together.

 

Another item of note is that I do run with the task bar at the bottom of my screen with several icons in the task bar.

 

Any and all help will be greatly appreciated.

Edited July 21, 2019 by AKA_Clutter

[farmertom]

..

really?

[MilesD]

Hey Clutter,

When you are defining the left and right cursor box limits, ensure the VR headset is active, I usually just put mine face down and throw a mouse pad inside to activate the proximity switch. When the cursors are close to the DCS window they offset significantly and apear to jump around, continue to bring them inboard (closer together) until you can just see them in the VR headset, then just move them out a bit. It sounds like they are to close to the DCS window edge.

 

Keep me posted,

Miles

 

Hi,

 

I am having problems with PointCTRL. I have the latest firmware version installed and have been through the calibration process three different times, including the Edge calibration process. It isn’t a problem with the calibration process or getting the FCUs to work in game. I think it has to do with the PointCTRL going outside the window and “loosing focus”.

 

Here is what I am seeing. I go into a DCS FA-18 mission get it up and running and use the FCUs to flick some switches. After a bit, I notice the “ESC” key doesn’t work, some of my HOTAS keyboard command aren’t working as (e.g., nosewheel steering). At first ALT-TAB will cycle thro8ugh the open windows. Once I select the open DCS window, all works fine, for a while. When the key board isn’t working, the FCUs still work to flip switches and such. After a while, the keyboard stops working altogether even after I exit DCS. I have had to reboot to get keyboard input back.

 

I did do a test where I point out of the cockpit at my 9 o'clock and clicked on the runway. When I did that, the ESC key didn't work.

 

I thought this might be because I hadn’t calibrated the windowed constraints correctly. I have done that twice since. I have noticed that in this step of the calibration procedure, I see three flashing cursors on each side of the screen. These don’t seem to appear that I bring the cursors closer together.

 

Another item of note is that I do run with the task bar at the bottom of my screen with several icons in the task bar.

 

Any and all help will be greatly appreciated.

[AKA_Clutter]

Miles,

 

Yes the headset is active when I calibrate. I put a little piece of paper over the sensor in the Rift CV1 and then set it next to me. I am not sure you can do the first two steps without it being active.

 

I am out doing errands for the next three hours, but will try again later today.

 

Thanks for the response.

[kaltokri]

Any guess how long it will take to reach shipping pos 77?

It is nice to read that the product gets better with each week.

But I will enjoy reading much more when the shipping list is beyond 77. ;)

 

 

Don't get me wrong. It take as long as it needs.

But in the beginning I hoped the deployment proccess would speed up a little bit after the first 30. Right now it looks like the opposite.

 

The more that are delivered, the slower it gets, because you find more to be optimized.

 

 

Please forgive me my impatience. :)

[RogueSqdn]

I’m #79 so I’m starting to get excited.

 

Knee surgery at the VA on 9/16 and won’t be able to fly for several weeks after (man cave is upstairs), so I’m hoping it comes before then.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KartRacerNC]

Hello all, please add me to the list. I have pm,d Milesd and sent an email to the website. Is that all I need to do? Thanks

[MilesD]

Any guess how long it will take to reach shipping pos 77?

It is nice to read that the product gets better with each week.

But I will enjoy reading much more when the shipping list is beyond 77. ;)

 

Don't get me wrong. It take as long as it needs.

But in the beginning I hoped the deployment proccess would speed up a little bit after the first 30. Right now it looks like the opposite.

 

The more that are delivered, the slower it gets, because you find more to be optimized.

 

Please forgive me my impatience. :)

 

Hi Kaltokri,

Thanks for the question, and the accurate observations about the slowed pace of shipping.

As users with more diverse experience and systems use PointCTRL new issues present themselves, such as ease of calibration, headset reporting, multiple monitors ect.

 

I need to work on a self help section of the manual describing problems and fixes. I would encourage everyone to watch the videos on the website before receiving PointCTRL so you are familiar with it.

 

If I just focus on production I can ship between 5 and 10 units a day. However that would compound the customer support issues. I am trying to get ahead of the curve so users can have a better experience with PointCTRL.

 

I am going to do a post with ideas for customer support for some feedback.

 

Thanks, I am sure you asked what many others were thinking.

 

Miles

[MilesD]

So here a few ideas for customer support,

 

1) A short phone video showing the screen and possibly FCU with audio narration of what buttons are being pressed would significantly shorten my troubleshooting time. Alternately a desktop video capture with audio narration of what buttons are being pressed might be easier, I believe we all have that capability with windows 10 game-bar. It would probably take the user less time than all of the back and fourth descriptions of what is going on.

 

2) It would be nice to have a central posting area specifically for these videos so everyone could provide assistance. It will probably entail uploading to your own you tube account and linking in a support page on pointctrl.com

 

3) I will make some more videos to include showing fails and what causes them, as well as the fix.

 

4) I was thinking of some form of office hours live stream for support. it would be a lot easier for me to sit here and do my work and if anyone has a question I can turn on the camera and answer questions, if no one comes to the live stream, even better.

 

5) Discord? I don't know how it works, but I don't want to wear out my welcome with ED in this forum. I have sent Wags a PointCTRL a few months back for testing, but I believe he is very busy and has not had an opportunity to test it and we are not in contact anymore. I believe they may be going in a different direction with Capto-Glove. Which to be honest, is a much more professional and long term solution than PointCTRL. They have a team of experienced true professionals in this field, compared to some random retired Green Beret on the internet who probably has no business making this stuff, but just wanted to point at stuff in his cockpit make it work when playing a video game. Although, I was contacted by U.S. Air Force contracting for an order.

Funny story, A few months ago, Sen-Huang Huang, the Founder, Chairman, President, and CEO of PixArt, the company that makes the PointCTRL sensor (and pretty much every mouse sensor in the world) flew all way from Taiwan to spend the day with me in my living room to talk about PointCTRL, and how one random guy who was not an engineer, was able to make PointCTRL work. He is truly a gracious and inspiring Man. Sorry off topic.

 

I welcome any other suggestions to make PointCTRL a better experience, and as always, thanks for your patience and input.

 

 

Miles

Edited July 22, 2019 by MilesD

[AKA_Clutter]

So here a few ideas for customer support,

 

…

 

Miles

 

I think you were reading my mind. As a previous post stated, I am having issues. I started to post the results of 5 test I ran this morning, but it is rather long.

 

I can setup a Discord channel for Point CTRL, make you the admin (along with me). Once you are comfortable using Discord, I can give you full owner ship.

 

Let me know how it is best to send the test results I have to date (I still have a problem) and if you would like me to establish a Discord channel.

[FoxDelta]

miles, u may want to join this discord channel and ask the admin drake1984 for a dedicated pctrl channel,

all main peripherals supplier are represented there

 

https://discordapp.com/invite/szqaJE7

 

its the HOTAS/HOSAS/SIMPIT channel

[MilesD]

Hey Clutter,

Share it here, it may help someone else. My experience has been the task-bar will pop up even when its hidden and cause a loss of window focus. I always have mine on the lefts side, I feels more intuitive to me because you are always looking and working in the vertical.

 

But that would not cause your issue with pointing out the extreme right side to lose window focus.

[FireCat]

Hello all, please add me to the list. I have pm,d Milesd and sent an email to the website. Is that all I need to do? Thanks

 

Hi KartRacerNC,

You have been added to the list link below.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3862014&postcount=690

 

Regards.

[AKA_Clutter]

Hi Miles and all,

 

This is the problem that I posted about yesterday. Sorry for the wall of text.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 

I am having problems with PointCTRL. I have the latest firmware version installed and have been through the calibration process three different times, including the Edge calibration process. It isn’t a problem with the calibration process or getting the FCUs to work in game. I think it has to do with the PointCTRL going outside the window and “loosing focus”.

 

Here is what I am seeing. I go into a DCS FA-18 mission get it up and running and use the FCUs to flick some switches. After a bit, I notice the “ESC” key doesn’t work, some of my HOTAS keyboard command aren’t working as (e.g., nosewheel steering). At first ALT-TAB will cycle thro8ugh the open windows. Once I select the open DCS window, all works fine, for a while. When the key board isn’t working, the FCUs still work to flip switches and such. After a while, the keyboard stops working altogether even after I exit DCS. I have had to reboot to get keyboard input back.

 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 

 

Here are the test I have done so far.

 

 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

 

 

PointCTRL Test July 21, 2019

 

Test 1, 2, 5, and 6 were done without recalibrating from 7//20/2019.

Test 1

Moved Task bar from bottom to right side.

Apps running – TM TARGET for Warthog HOTAS running FA-18 script, Oculus Tray Tool, SkatZilla’s DCS Updater Utility , and Oculus home itself. With the exception of Oculus Home, all other apps were minimized. All desk top icons are hidden.

Mission: Instant Action, FA-18 Free flight, Caucus Map

Test – Launched mission with FCUs off. Flew around tested keyboard keys, ESC key, and programmed stick that issues keyboard commands. All worked fine. Used mouse on ARM key and UFC. No issues. Looked out left side and clicked in mid space. Test keyboard again and worked as it should. Looked out right side and cursor was not steady but bounced around. (See test #2 for additional information.

Turned on FUCs and clicked ARM switch. Tested keyboard ESC key and it did not work. ALT tabbed to reset focus. ESC did work AFTER I clicked back in the cockpit. TM stick commands worked, could click on buttons with FCU. ESC command was sporadic.

Exited out of DCS and then went back in to see if it was just turning on the FCUs. Once back in with the FCUs OFF, the ESC button did not work. Exited back out and tried Word. Keyboard did not work, it was as if a Function key, or ALT key was stuck 0on.

 

Test 2

Rebooted PC. FCUs off

Apps running – TM TARGET for Warthog HOTAS running FA-18 script, Oculus Tray Tool, SkatZilla’s DCS Updater Utility , and Oculus home itself. All apps including Oculus Home were minimized. All desk top icons are hidden

Mission: Instant Action, Free flight, Caucus Map

Test – Launched mission with FCUs off. Flew around tested keyboard keys, ESC key, and programmed stick that issues keyboard commands. All worked fine. Used mouse on ARM key and UFC. No issues. Looked out left side and clicked in mid space. Test keyboard again and worked as it should

In my computer room, there is a sliding glass door to the right. In the setup test, this did not trip the HMU sensor until I was about 45 degrees from looking straight ahead. This time, when I looked to the right side, I first covered the HMU sensor with my finger. When looking right with my finger over the sensor, the cursor was steady, just like looking out the left. As soon as I removed my finger, the cursor, started bouncing. When I look back at the monitor, the cursor was stuck to the upper right-hand corner. A mouse press released it from there and the cursor moved freely around the screen. HOWEVER, the ESC key did not work, my other keys were sporadic.

Test 3 – outside of DCS with PointCTRL turned OFF

Test with FA-18 TARGET Script running. I had a similar issue once used, it seemed like a key (ALT, CTRL) was stuck.

 

Test 4 – outside of DCS with PointCTRL turned OFF

Test using US_helo TARGET script running. I did not see any issues using the limited set commands. seemed to work fine.

 

Test 5

Rebooted PC. HCU and FCUs off

Apps running – TM TARGET for Warthog HOTAS US-Helo script, Oculus Tray Tool, SkatZilla’s DCS Updater Utility, and Oculus home itself. All apps including Oculus Home were minimized. All desk top icons are hidden

Mission: Instant Action, KA-50 Free flight, Caucus Map

Test – Launched mission with HCU and FCUs off. Flew around tested keyboard keys, ESC key. I did not use ANY of the joystick buttons that issue keyboard commands.. All worked fine. Used mouse on ARM key and UFC. No issues. Looked out left side and clicked in mid space. Test keyboard again and worked as it should.

 

Turned on the HCU (held left button for ~ 1 second). Tested keyboard and no issues.

 

Tuned on FCUs. I noticed problems as soon as I turned on the FCUs and before I clicked on any buttons. ESC key did not work, other keyboard commands didn’t work, could click in cockpit. Once I atl-tabedd out and back in the first mouse click brought up the ESC menu. Clicking made it go away, but wouldn’t work again until you click in the cockpit again.

 

Went back out and tested in Word. Again, it was like an alt key was stuck on.

 

Test 6

Rebooted PC. HCU and FCUs off

Apps running –, Oculus Tray Tool, SkatZilla’s DCS Updater Utility, and Oculus home itself. All apps including Oculus Home were minimized. All desk top icons are hidden.

TM TARGET for was not running for this test.

Mission: Instant Action, KA-50 Free flight, Caucus Map

Test – Launched mission with HCU and FCUs off. Flew around tested keyboard keys, ESC key. All worked fine. Used mouse on ARM key and UFC. No issues. Looked out left side and clicked in mid space. Test keyboard again and worked as it should.

 

Turned on the HCU (held left button for ~ 1 second). Tested keyboard and no issues.

 

Tuned on FCUs. I noticed problems as soon as I turned on the FCUs and before I clicked on any buttons. ESC key did not work, other keyboard commands didn’t work, could click in cockpit. Once I atl-tabedd out and back in the first mouse click brought up the ESC menu. Clicking made it go away, but wouldn’t work again until you click in the cockpit again. Once you did this the other keyboard commands worked fine.

 

The normal way ESC works, is that you press it once and it brings up the menu, press it again, and it goes away. Once I start having issues, this does not happen.

 

Went back out and tested in Word. This time Word had no issues.

 

 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I plan on starting from scratch later today, reinstall the latest firmware, recalibrate and rerun the test above (at least 2, 5, and 6).

[mariner3302]

I didn't think I was being a dick... I thought I was helping....

 

 

I moved my windows task bar to the right side when I started doing DCS in the Rift because of the accidental window switching.

[MilesD]

Out to dinner with the family now but I will read and digest when I get back

[MilesD]

Hi Miles and all,

 

This is the problem that I posted about yesterday. Sorry for the wall of text.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 

I am having problems with PointCTRL.

 

 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I plan on starting from scratch later today, reinstall the latest firmware, recalibrate and rerun the test above (at least 2, 5, and 6).

 

Okay, After reading through you process, all of the issues seem to be related to IR interference and the cursor box window wich is causing a loss of DCS window focus. The escape key doesn't work, because the escape key dosent work when you loose focus on the DCS window. I.R. interference is just like TrackIR. I have been fooled a few times by the sun shifting and bouncing off a shiny object.

 

Did you move the cursor window box far enough inside the DCS window so you could see all 4 cursors clearly? I think I suggested in a PM that you try moving them inward until you can just see them in your headset, and then move them out just out of view.

 

Losing focus when looking to the right makes complete sense, because the IR source from the window was being picked up as the cursor, and when you clicked,it it was to the extreme right outside the field of view.

 

A quick pic or short phone video of your cursor box set-up would be really helpful. But I concur with what you said about losing focus. Narrowing up the cursor should completely eliminate your issues.

 

Good luck and feel free to give me a call on my home phone, I will PM again if you don't have it.

 

Miles

[AKA_Clutter]

Miles,'

 

Trying to upload a short viedo of cursor calibration, step 1 (or 2)

20190721_200556.rar

[MilesD]

got it, PMd you with Land Line

Miles,'

 

Trying to upload a short viedo of cursor calibration, step 1 (or 2)

[FoxDelta]

could be an usb power issue a.

if some keys or buttons are still working in DCS. being outside of DCS would stop all peripherals in DCS, the joystick axis as well.

 

try disconnecting unused usb peripherals or try a powered usb hub!

 

just an idea

[MilesD]

Miles can you explain the idea behind the calibration? Is it to find the edges and then scale the hand motion to that distance. Seems to me that "point to a cursor", without any feedback as to where you are pointing, has a lot of variability that can not be accounted for. IMHO it would be better to say point to OSB1 on the left MFD and then point to OSB1 on the right MFD with a visible cursor. Knowing the geometry of the front panel would help scale better. again IMHO. Maybe a different scale for each cockpit? For me personally I do not like to stretch out my arms to push a button but just move my hand left/right to align the visible cursor over a button.

 

Sometimes the cursor is a little twitchy, would a "Dead Zone" help this?

 

Can a scale factor be added to slow down how fast the cursor moves?

 

Again all of this IMHO, just food for thought..We are all good:)

 

Hey FarmerTom,

 

Your suggestion about using the cockpit for reference, and later feedback about arm position got me thinking about different procedures.

 

In the early morning hours last night, I tried an alternate method of calibration using cockpit objects for reference as you suggested, rather than just pointing and clicking on the cursors.

 

The results were outstanding, and when done properly can eliminate the need for edge calibration.

 

By using your idea of actually pointing at objects, coupled with positioning your hand at the distance where it feels like you are actually touching the switch many of the variable tolerances are reduced.

 

The best part was no coding changes, just a alternate procedure to try out.

 

Thanks, and I think this was that synergy you were talking about.

 

I was worn out in this video, but I wanted to get a demo up showing the alternate procedure.

 

Miles