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Posted

Guys, this isn’t about whether the F-18 can takeoff in auto flap mode - it can.

 

The issue is the inconsistency between aircraft in seemingly the same configuration. If you cold start a jet exactly by the book and then attempt a Auto flap takeoff the aircraft will fly perfectly acceptably. The aircraft will trim to 1G shortly after takeoff.

 

Now try this : spawn a jet hot on the end of the runway. Select Auto flap and takeoff. You should get a strong pitch up and once up to speed the jet will be trimmed to between 3-4G. I even sat there doing circles hands off in full burner at 5G.

 

So what is the difference between the condition of a cold start jet that has been started correctly and a hot start jet?

 

I suggest you go test this before saying “no bug” or “this is realistic” how can it be realistic when two aircraft which should supposedly be in the same state end up flying differently. If the jet was consistent with its behaviour then I would agree. But it isn’t.

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Posted
Incidentally , i did try the hot-start auto-takeoff , and did find about a 10 degree/second uncommanded pitch , easily controlled with forward stick , and not requiring any forward trim.

 

Very interesting. Let me ask you to clarify. So you’re saying you’d get an initial pitch up and then the aircraft would return to 1G trim state?

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Posted
With respect , the link between your first paragraph , and your comment about my ignoring evidence is a bit of a stretch-well , rather more than a bit . The only problem i really have with the whole auto-takeoff debate is the belief expressed by some that they shouldn't have to accept the consequences of not following procedures , and

therefore it must be a bug . That , in my opinion , is irrational .

I think Deano presented some good evidence of-possibly-a bug , but one that only manifests itself if you don't follow procedures , and one that would be incredibly difficult and expensive to prove one way or the other . I acknowledged that evidence once i understood it .

If anyone experienced discomfort because of the more heated arguments , to the extent i am responsible , I apologize . I felt i had to engage when one ignores evidence , repeatable tests , and the Natops in favor of his own unqualified opinion .

Incidentally , i did try the hot-start auto-takeoff , and did find about a 10 degree/second uncommanded pitch , easily controlled with forward stick , and not requiring any forward trim . Of course another's stick/curves may give a different result with respect to recovery .

 

I'm not ignoring your evidence, it's good stuff. But while your evidence says that you should T/O with flaps in half, it says nothing about what would happen if you don't. And that's the point. Thus far, no-one can say categorically if this is a bug or not, which is why it's an interesting talking point.

Posted
Very interesting. Let me ask you to clarify. So you’re saying you’d get an initial pitch up and then the aircraft would return to 1G trim state?

 

Negative . The aircraft would continue an uncommanded pitch at a 10°/sec rate . I had to maintain forward stick to regain the horizon .

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Posted
I'm not ignoring your evidence, it's good stuff. But while your evidence says that you should T/O with flaps in half, it says nothing about what would happen if you don't. And that's the point. Thus far, no-one can say categorically if this is a bug or not, which is why it's an interesting talking point.

 

Never said you did . You said that i did :) i do think Deano's bug is valid .

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Posted
Negative . The aircraft would continue an uncommanded pitch at a 10°/sec rate . I had to maintain forward stick to regain the horizon .

 

Ah cool. Have you tried a cold start Auto flap takeoff?

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Posted
Ah cool. Have you tried a cold start Auto flap takeoff?

 

Not yet , because i have no reason to doubt your results . If you wish confirmation , i will do so .

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Posted
Not yet , because i have no reason to doubt your results . If you wish confirmation , i will do so .

 

Well there are probably more variables from person to person with a cold start so it would be good for somebody else to confirm my results. I've yet to see the pitch up with a cold start auto flap takeoff but I haven't seen anybody else test it.

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Posted

Stick to the rules and avoid learning bad habits.

 

 

You flick the wrong switch in an airplane and crash ? Well, that's why Pilots must be far more concentrated than ANY other but maybe a submarine commander, there is ZERO space for mishaps in aviation, it all comes down to this. Stick to the book !

 

 

I had this too, yeah, my own damn lazyness but in the end, MY fault.

 

 

I dont quite get the debate I have to admit

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Posted
Well there are probably more variables from person to person with a cold start so it would be good for somebody else to confirm my results. I've yet to see the pitch up with a cold start auto flap takeoff but I haven't seen anybody else test it.

 

K . Will do

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Posted
Stick to the rules and avoid learning bad habits.

 

 

You flick the wrong switch in an airplane and crash ? Well, that's why Pilots must be far more concentrated than ANY other but maybe a submarine commander, there is ZERO space for mishaps in aviation, it all comes down to this. Stick to the book !

 

 

I had this too, yeah, my own damn lazyness but in the end, MY fault.

 

 

I dont quite get the debate I have to admit

 

Let me clarify things for you. There is lots of video evidence of Hornets getting airborne (from airbases) in Auto flap mode. So while the normal procedure is Half or Full flap, the aircraft can certainly safely get airborne in auto-flap, At least at light weight.

 

When you attempt this in the sim depending on whether you spawn a cold and dark jet or a hot jet you get two different results. The Hot starts results in a Jet that is way out of trim and does not return to the 1G trim state it should. So there is clearly something weird going on.

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Posted

If there is a difference between cold and hot start behavior, the next thing to do would be to ensure that both are following the same start procedure with no exception.

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Posted
If there is a difference between cold and hot start behavior, the next thing to do would be to ensure that both are following the same start procedure with no exception.

 

Good point , and covered . Thanks .

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Posted
Let me clarify things for you. There is lots of video evidence of Hornets getting airborne (from airbases) in Auto flap mode. So while the normal procedure is Half or Full flap, the aircraft can certainly safely get airborne in auto-flap, At least at light weight.

 

When you attempt this in the sim depending on whether you spawn a cold and dark jet or a hot jet you get two different results. The Hot starts results in a Jet that is way out of trim and does not return to the 1G trim state it should. So there is clearly something weird going on.

When I try to take off in Flaps Auto setting from a runway, I get a master caution with audio signal AND a CK FLAPS Warning on the left DDI.

 

So what are you trying to accomplish?!

 

The plane actively warns you that you have the flaps set wrong!

 

The FLAPS are even on the CHKLST page, number 4 under T.O. for Take Off.

 

It may be, that some Blue Angels, with the tension spring on the stick use different procedures to do a Flaps Auto mode take off.

But it is likely not simply "taking off with flaps set to auto".

Maybe a combination of FCS reset, TO trim adjust and deliberate stick inputs... anyways, the F-18C to me seems to behave exactly like it should, when abusing it the way you do, against all procedures checklists and warning indications. :doh:

Shagrat

 

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Posted

Really need a legit hornet driver to chime in and put this to bed!

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Posted
Really need a legit hornet driver to chime in and put this to bed!
If the original NATOPS manual can't, maybe even that won't help...

The funny thing is, ED has subject matter expert testing the module.

 

It's the internet. Can't be helped.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

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Posted
When I try to take off in Flaps Auto setting from a runway, I get a master caution with audio signal AND a CK FLAPS Warning on the left DDI.

 

So what are you trying to accomplish?!

 

The plane actively warns you that you have the flaps set wrong!

 

The FLAPS are even on the CHKLST page, number 4 under T.O. for Take Off.

 

It may be, that some Blue Angels, with the tension spring on the stick use different procedures to do a Flaps Auto mode take off.

But it is likely not simply "taking off with flaps set to auto".

Maybe a combination of FCS reset, TO trim adjust and deliberate stick inputs... anyways, the F-18C to me seems to behave exactly like it should, when abusing it the way you do, against all procedures checklists and warning indications. :doh:

 

The checklist or warnings are not relevant. They neither confirm nor deny if the observed behaviour is correct.

 

This is a SIM. Deviations from procedures should result in no less realistic behaviours than when they are followed.

Posted
The checklist or warnings are not relevant. They neither confirm nor deny if the observed behaviour is correct.

 

This is a SIM. Deviations from procedures should result in no less realistic behaviours than when they are followed.

Absolutely... when have you last seen a plane spawn (as in materialize out of nowhere) in real life?

 

So if you follow real life procedures and start your plane correctly everything in the simulation is as in reality.

Only if you cheat and "spawn the plane hot", which is impossible in real life, the result is, well, couldn't say exactly what would be realistic, as we talk a convenience cheat here.

Where in the checklist are we at spawning? Before taxi? After final preps for take off, or before?

 

It may be something not working as expected, but on my list this would become a priority to fix, after every last bit of systems, weapons, radar and what ever is implemented.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

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Posted

It may be something not working as expected, but on my list this would become a priority to fix, after every last bit of systems, weapons, radar and what ever is implemented.

 

AMEN !

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Posted
Absolutely... when have you last seen a plane spawn (as in materialize out of nowhere) in real life?

 

So if you follow real life procedures and start your plane correctly everything in the simulation is as in reality.

Only if you cheat and "spawn the plane hot", which is impossible in real life, the result is, well, couldn't say exactly what would be realistic, as we talk a convenience cheat here.

Where in the checklist are we at spawning? Before taxi? After final preps for take off, or before?

 

It may be something not working as expected, but on my list this would become a priority to fix, after every last bit of systems, weapons, radar and what ever is implemented.

 

Straw man argument. By that reasoning why bother with trying to make a sim even the slightest bit realistic even when following a checklist.

 

Your point about where this bug, if it is one, sits on the priority list is valid but that's a separate argument.

Posted
It may be something not working as expected, but on my list this would become a priority to fix, after every last bit of systems, weapons, radar and what ever is implemented.

 

I agree. And I was never shouting "YOU MUST FIX THIS NOW!!! LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE!" but rather I'm trying to have a discussion about a FCS anomaly which clearly other people are experiencing.

 

Now that we have that point out of the way.

 

Anyways, the F-18C to me seems to behave exactly like it should, when abusing it the way you do, against all procedures checklists and warning indications. :doh:

 

So let me fully understand what your saying. When you say "like it should" you mean you've tested it in both a hot start on runway and a cold start and it behaves the same? And what is that behaviour exactly?

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Posted
I agree.

Now that we have that point out of the way.

 

In order to ensure good data , i need to use the same checklist as you for the test . Which one ? You can ignore the previously-sent PM if you see this .

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Posted

Honestly I've just been using what I've memorised from Wags's startup video + INS alignment stuff which I think wasn't in there at that time.

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Posted
A video showing a RL auto-flap takeoff.

It's been said above that there's lots of video showing takeoffs in auto-flaps.

 

I haven't searched myself so I've only seen the one presented here, and in the one presented here, the aircraft pitches up immediately after takeoff into a loop. Exactly the same behaviour that the OP described.

 

Anyone got a link to a takeoff W/ auto-flaps that is followed by level flight with the auto-flaps maintained ?

Cheers.

Posted
It's been said above that there's lots of video showing takeoffs in auto-flaps.

 

I haven't searched myself so I've only seen the one presented here, and in the one presented here, the aircraft pitches up immediately after takeoff into a loop. Exactly the same behaviour that the OP described.

 

Anyone got a link to a takeoff W/ auto-flaps that is followed by level flight with the auto-flaps maintained ?

 

Thats irrelevant: If you do an Flap Auto takeoff with a cold start jet the aircraft flies normally - Trims to 1G. If you do a Flap Auto takeoff with a Hot start jet you end up with a jet massively out of trim - I guarantee that the display pilot is not spending the whole display fighting with an aircraft that is trimmed to 3G.

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My Fathers Aviation Memoirs: 50 Years of Flying Fun - From Hunter to Spitfire and back again.

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