I'm better at case 3 than case 1......?

[Alligin]

After 20 years of simming. I find I can land the 18 better in the dark than I can in daylight.

 

But I did loads of night/bad weather flights in Falcon BMS and Microsoft flight sim.

 

Still. I'm only catching a dangerous 1 wire or it's a bolter. I'ts constant power on power off adjustments. I know thats true in real life but not to extent I'm doing it. Deff pilot induced.

But God the 18 is fussy!

 

It might be due to the curve I had to introduce to to my X65F to get the burners to come in at the throttle detent.

 

Now I just know I'm one of the very few with an X65F so I can expect zero help regarding the 65F. ;)

Edited January 1, 2019 by Alligin

[AG-51_Sabot]

Power and AoA. I don’t care which stick you use Power and AoA will be the key factor. Your personal curve will whatever you feel comfortable eith.

[Alligin]

Power and AoA. I don’t care which stick you use Power and AoA will be the key factor. Your personal curve will whatever you feel comfortable eith.

 

Yeah I know about power and AoA. But God it's difficult to keep it there. That's my problem! But thanks anyway. I DO appreciate it.

Edited January 1, 2019 by Alligin

[Tomsk]

Yeah I know about power and AoA. But God it's difficult to keep it there. That's my problem! But thanks anyway. I DO appreciate it.

 

It is insanely hard, far harder than AAR or hovering in a helicopter, but a few things that have helped me:

• You can set the trim so the plane will hold the appropriate AoA, which means you only really need to worry about power: AoA will then take care of itself. After you've done the break and lowered gear and flaps I've found you need to trim a few clicks "nose up" to get it trimmed right for AoA. You can tell it's right when the meatball wants to sit in the middle of the bracket. Then it's just a case of power for altitude, pitch (and hence trim) for speed (AoA). For big corrections I sometimes anticipate what the throttle is doing with the pitch, but only very gently, the throttle needs to do most of the work.
   
   
  
• I've found constantly moving the power back and forth, also known as "rocking the throttle" makes it much easier not to over correct. I try to keep up a "back, forth, back, forth" throttle motion all the time. If I want to go lower I do a bigger "back", if I want to go higher I do a bigger "forth", but I keep the rocking going.
   
   
  
• When rolling out of the turn into the grove, the plane will suddenly need less power because it doesn't need to turn anymore. You need to anticipate this by dropping the throttle as you level out or your final approach will be all over the place.
   
   
  
• You need to come out way more to the right of the carrier than you would expect. The line-up is actually quite a tricky thing to get right. I've found using the ILS can help significantly with getting the right line-up.
   
   
  
• The common advice given is not to "spot the deck", which is where you put the meat ball on a specific place on the deck, but instead "just fly the ball". However, I have honestly not had much luck with following that approach too religiously, even after many many attempts. The ball only tells you if you are too high, it doesn't tell you if you are getting higher or lower. As a result I found just flying the ball I had a lot of approaches that were absolutely perfect on the ball, until the very last second where they suddenly went too high or too low far faster than I could correct for, generally resulting in a bolter.
   
  Instead I've found it useful to use a certain amount of "deck spotting". The approach I use is to very much fly the ball, however, I can tell whether I am rising or falling by looking at where the meatball is on the deck. If it above the crotch of the ship you are rising, if it is below you are falling. You can also tell how quickly you are rising or falling. I've found trying to land reliably without this information is very difficult, perhaps in real life you can feel it "in the seat of your pants", but in a simulator there seems to be no other way to know if you are rising or falling reliably.
  

Edited January 2, 2019 by Tomsk

[donkeyrider]

A couple of things that have worked for me with Case 1:

 

* Extend the break to about two nautical miles ahead of the boat. This gives you a longer downwind leg to get setup.

 

* Don't extend gear and full flaps until about 180 knots. There is less oscillation when you do this compared to 250 knots

 

* As mentioned above using the ILS can be helpful with the lineup. Also, keep the velocity vector just above the horizontal line

 

* After you are on speed, you can't set and forget. You need to keep moving that throttle. To that end I keep an eye on the rate of change of airspeed. The faster it moves, the bigger throttle movements you need to make. I don't worry about finding an ideal airspeed.

 

* My scan is: AoA, lineup, airspeed, meatball

 

* I try to fly the meatball and avoid putting the velocity vector in the "elbow". It's hard to see it at first so initially I just try to keep the wires at around -3 degrees on the HUD and focus on the lineup.

 

* Finally, just like real life, you need to practice regularly. I try to do a landing every few days. If I leave it a week or more, my first couple of landings are not pretty.

 

* Don't forget Bankler's landing mission, which is also helpful in getting you setup right in the pattern.

 

Hope this helps.

[oscar19681]

For Some reason i find air to air refueling much harder then carrier landings.

[dawgie79]

For Some reason i find air to air refueling much harder then carrier landings.

Yeah, me too!

 

 

Although I do a Case 1 in a constant turn, I start my break right about when I'm aligned to the island of the carrier, hit the 1% G's untill I reach gear down speed (250kts), then gear down, flaps full, relax the turn radius into a 40/45 degrees until hitting the 180 degree turn, while trimming on speed AoA, then decrease turn rate to 27-30 degress, keep the vertical velocity in check, also the height (visually mostly), easy that into the groove, and then land while checking the ball and visually the deck while maintaining on speed AoA. (VR).

 

 

AAR is much harder for me, especially keeping the probe in the basket once it hits it.

 

 

Strange, the different procedures different people find difficult. :)

Edited January 2, 2019 by dawgie79

[oscar19681]

Yeah, me too!

 

 

Although I do a Case 1 in a constant turn, I start my break right about when I'm aligned to the island of the carrier, hit the 1% G's untill I reach gear down speed (250kts), then gear down, flaps full, relax the turn radius into a 40/45 degrees until hitting the 180 degree turn, while trimming on speed AoA, then decrease turn rate to 27-30 degress, keep the vertical velocity in check, also the height (visually mostly), easy that into the groove, and then land while checking the ball and visually the deck while maintaining on speed AoA. (VR).

 

 

AAR is much harder for me, especially keeping the probe in the basket once it hits it.

 

 

Strange, the different procedures different people find difficult. :)

 

Indeed. AAR is much more dependent on a steady hand then carrier landings

[Tomsk]

I find AAR is actually a lot like maintaining a hover in a helicopter. After you've practiced it enough, you can do it without thinking: the correct movement just happens. Carrier landings, however, require a lot of concentration.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

You can tell it's right when the meatball wants to sit in the middle of the bracket.

 

I'm guessing you mean velocity vector / flight path marker, rather than meatball?

 

However, I have honestly not had much luck with following that approach too religiously, even after many many attempts. The ball only tells you if you are too high, it doesn't tell you if you are getting higher or lower.

 

It's tricky, but try practicing without the HUD. If the meatball appears to move, correct as necessary then hold that attitude. I do this by referencing the horizon against the HUD's frame, keeping it steady. Repeat until the ball is centred and not moving.

 

* Don't extend gear and full flaps until about 180 knots. There is less oscillation when you do this compared to 250 knots.

 

If you drop gear/flaps during the break you shouldn't get any occilation, you just modulate the back pressure a bit. Are you doing this while straight/level?

[Tomsk]

I'm guessing you mean velocity vector / flight path marker, rather than meatball?

 

Yes the flight path marker, it does also get called the meatball. This is of course in contrast to "the ball", which to my knowledge does not get called a "meatball".

 

It's tricky, but try practicing without the HUD. If the meatball appears to move, correct as necessary then hold that attitude. I do this by referencing the horizon against the HUD's frame, keeping it steady. Repeat until the ball is centred and not moving.

 

This may work on a screen, but I fly in VR and it's not really possible to see the ball clearly enough for that. In the end I guess people needs to find what works for them :)

Edited January 2, 2019 by Tomsk

[Mule]

It is insanely hard, far harder than AAR or hovering in a helicopter, but a few things that have helped me:

• You can set the trim so the plane will hold the appropriate AoA, which means you only really need to worry about power: AoA will then take care of itself. After you've done the break and lowered gear and flaps I've found you need to trim a few clicks "nose up" to get it trimmed right for AoA. You can tell it's right when the meatball wants to sit in the middle of the bracket. Then it's just a case of power for altitude, pitch (and hence trim) for speed (AoA). For big corrections I sometimes anticipate what the throttle is doing with the pitch, but only very gently, the throttle needs to do most of the work.
   
   
  
• I've found constantly moving the power back and forth, also known as "rocking the throttle" makes it much easier not to over correct. I try to keep up a "back, forth, back, forth" throttle motion all the time. If I want to go lower I do a bigger "back", if I want to go higher I do a bigger "forth", but I keep the rocking going.
   
   
  
• When rolling out of the turn into the grove, the plane will suddenly need less power because it doesn't need to turn anymore. You need to anticipate this by dropping the throttle as you level out or your final approach will be all over the place.
   
   
  
• You need to come out way more to the right of the carrier than you would expect. The line-up is actually quite a tricky thing to get right. I've found using the ILS can help significantly with getting the right line-up.
   
   
  
• The common advice given is not to "spot the deck", which is where you put the meat ball on a specific place on the deck, but instead "just fly the ball". However, I have honestly not had much luck with following that approach too religiously, even after many many attempts. The ball only tells you if you are too high, it doesn't tell you if you are getting higher or lower. As a result I found just flying the ball I had a lot of approaches that were absolutely perfect on the ball, until the very last second where they suddenly went too high or too low far faster than I could correct for, generally resulting in a bolter.
   
  Instead I've found it useful to use a certain amount of "deck spotting". The approach I use is to very much fly the ball, however, I can tell whether I am rising or falling by looking at where the meatball is on the deck. If it above the crotch of the ship you are rising, if it is below you are falling. You can also tell how quickly you are rising or falling. I've found trying to land reliably without this information is very difficult, perhaps in real life you can feel it "in the seat of your pants", but in a simulator there seems to be no other way to know if you are rising or falling reliably.
  

 

Solid points.

[Cab]

A couple of things that have worked for me with Case 1:

 

* Extend the break to about two nautical miles ahead of the boat. This gives you a longer downwind leg to get setup.

 

* Don't extend gear and full flaps until about 180 knots. There is less oscillation when you do this compared to 250 knots

 

* As mentioned above using the ILS can be helpful with the lineup. Also, keep the velocity vector just above the horizontal line

 

* After you are on speed, you can't set and forget. You need to keep moving that throttle. To that end I keep an eye on the rate of change of airspeed. The faster it moves, the bigger throttle movements you need to make. I don't worry about finding an ideal airspeed.

 

* My scan is: AoA, lineup, airspeed, meatball

 

* I try to fly the meatball and avoid putting the velocity vector in the "elbow". It's hard to see it at first so initially I just try to keep the wires at around -3 degrees on the HUD and focus on the lineup.

 

* Finally, just like real life, you need to practice regularly. I try to do a landing every few days. If I leave it a week or more, my first couple of landings are not pretty.

 

* Don't forget Bankler's landing mission, which is also helpful in getting you setup right in the pattern.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

FYI for your scan, AoA is airspeed and airspeed is AoA. Recommend you scan: Meatball, Lineup, AoA.

[WildBillKelsoe]

I kind of feel that the power margin for corrections on the medium - idle portion or the medium - low portion of the throttle in this bird to be very slow to catch up. I've watched Jabbers's videos over and over and to me the notion of hitting the DMEs at the right altitudes is difficult without much responsive engine on the aforementioned throttle scales. I'm using TM T-Flight horas X even though I have TMWH but my working conditions prohibit me from carrying the behemoth warthog in my luggage as excess weight, besides, the bunk.

[Chuck_Henry]

I kind of feel that the power margin for corrections on the medium - idle portion or the medium - low portion of the throttle in this bird to be very slow to catch up.

 

This is a drawback inherent to all turbine engines. It's actually not as bad in the F/A-18 compared to an aircraft without FADEC, but it is still enough of a factor that you have to learn to anticipate it. T-45s (the Navy/Marine fighter trainer) actually fly approaches with the speed brakes extended so the engine can operate at higher RPMs for better spool time, without getting too fast. This isn't procedure for the Hornet, but I imagine you could do it by simply holding the speed brake switch to the rear while manipulating the throttle to stay on-speed all the way to touchdown.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Chuck_Henry

[kaoqumba]

CASE3, you have more time to fix the plane. Plenty of time is its advantage.