Working in a VR pit in the future discussion...

[Harlikwin]

So one of the great things about VR, is obviously that you are in the pit. Which is really immersive right now with a rift, right up until I have to interact with the actual pit. So I'm curious what people think the future of this is going to be or what peoples experiences are. Right now I'm basically using a mouse to click switches, or voice attack for radio comms mainly. I've got a rift touch, and I've tried the controllers, but honestly I think they break immersion more than the mouse, since I have to take my hands off the HOTAS to use them and then you have the phantom hand plus laser beam in the pit which is a bit weird.

 

Thus far the captoglove looks promising, as well as some members (point control) project for hand tracking/mouse for DCS, as well as the leap-motion tech that looks cool, but isn't supported in DCS.

 

The most obvious issue I see with this moving forward is basically how do you synchronize a HOTAS controller in VR with these hand tracking technologies? That is if your hands in the physical world aren't really close in the real world. I.e. I've got my TM warthog on the desk, and its a bit "ape hangery" or F16 like at best control wise. IF I were to use a captoglove(s) I'd have my hands randomly handing in free space fiddling around in the middle of nowhere and maybe even outside the pit. Now I've got some desk mounts on order to move the stick and throttle in the more "correct" place, but I'm really wondering what this is going to look like moving forward?

 

I guess the simpit crowd could somehow calibrate their "pit" with the VR pit for a single plane, but I don't really know how that would work for the rest of us without pits or if you wanted to fly something else.

 

I've seen the videos with the captoglove and "holding" the VR stick, I just don't really think thats ever gonna be anywhere near as good as a real hotas in terms of stick feel or precision of movment (on the stick or the throttle) and I don't see how you you push buttons since you need some sort of feedback for that?

 

Anyhow, thoughts welcome.

Edited January 21, 2019 by Harlikwin

[Los]

look at the point control thread around here.Its coming out soon. i've tried it and its awesome...

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=218861

Los

[Harlikwin]

look at the point control thread around here.Its coming out soon. i've tried it and its awesome...

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=218861

Los

 

Yeah that was the VR mouse thing I was thinking of.

 

Again, I'm thinking about how to do this all more immersively down the road and what the challanges are to that. I mean from a functional standpoint I can use voice attack and map every keyboard binding but that lacks IMO "immersion"

 

The main critisim I have of this is that it basically lacks the floaty hand immersion level, even though as a way to interact with a pit it seems to be decent, and likely will be a strong "stopgap" solution IMO and thus far I think its further along than captoglove is. The main advantage to it is that since its just a mouse pointer there is nothing to sync, and the main disadvantage is that its a mouse pointer, so not immersive.

Edited January 21, 2019 by Harlikwin

[Svsmokey]

God , no . I don't want disconnected hands floating around my cockpit !

[Harlikwin]

Well the captoglove seems to have some way of "connecting" it to the DCS pilot so the whole arm would move.

 

I agree on the whole phantom limb thing, but I would like a good way of interfacing with the cockpit that was better than a mouse. It might just take a while to get there.

[Svsmokey]

Well the captoglove seems to have some way of "connecting" it to the DCS pilot so the whole arm would move.

 

Now that i could see

[Harlikwin]

Now that i could see

 

The main issue with that then becomes how to calibrate your IRL stick/throttle to where the VR hands are supposed to be in the pit. I suppose there could be some clever way to do that.

[Harlikwin]

Well, a sort of update.

 

I finally got my Foxx mounts in for my warthog. And moving the stick and throttle really heleped with immersion.

 

To answer my own question of good the alignment of the VR pit needs to be with IRL control positions is it needs to be "ish". I can glance under my rift and while the VR stick isn't 100% aligned with the RL stick, even if its like 80-90% its still pretty good. I can line up my arm position the virtual pilot with no difficulty and its pretty great (I can glance under the rift, and my arm basically overlaps the VR arm position pretty well. Mostly you don't really notice when flying and operating things, but when you look down it "feels" right. Same for the throttle.

[Svsmokey]

Well, a sort of update.

 

I finally got my Foxx mounts in for my warthog. And moving the stick and throttle really heleped with immersion.

 

To answer my own question of good the alignment of the VR pit needs to be with IRL control positions is it needs to be "ish". I can glance under my rift and while the VR stick isn't 100% aligned with the RL stick, even if its like 80-90% its still pretty good. I can line up my arm position the virtual pilot with no difficulty and its pretty great (I can glance under the rift, and my arm basically overlaps the VR arm position pretty well. Mostly you don't really notice when flying and operating things, but when you look down it "feels" right. Same for the throttle.

 

It DOES make a difference . I used the index-finger-extension feature of the touch controllers to sync my throttle location to the VR pit , and it worked very well to "re-find" it after using a trackball . Synching increases the immersion as well . I ordered a pair of Foxxes a week ago , and will be using the touch controllers to sync the Hotas when installed . Will be doing the same with Cougar MFD's and a UFC numberpad when that time comes . And yes , when Captogloves are ready for prime time , I'll be looking into those as well...

[Harlikwin]

I was surprised that close enough worked as well as it did frankly.

 

And I've actually reconsidered touch controllers now. They live on the table space that was freed up, and reaching for them is now less awkward and I can "see them" under the rift, plus I can park them "in" the plane so I don't see the phantom hand syndrome.

 

I'm super excited about either ptctr or captogloves once they are ready. With my luck ptctr will be a month before capto and I'll buy both in short order. LOL...

 

How exactly are you "syncing" your hotas? Just touch controller position relative to the VR pilot?

 

Also, how do you map keys to the touch controlerrs? Is it as simple as just using the standard interface? I want to map a hide pilot key to one.

[Svsmokey]

I was surprised that close enough worked as well as it did frankly.

 

And I've actually reconsidered touch controllers now. They live on the table space that was freed up, and reaching for them is now less awkward and I can "see them" under the rift, plus I can park them "in" the plane so I don't see the phantom hand syndrome.

 

I'm super excited about either ptctr or captogloves once they are ready. With my luck ptctr will be a month before capto and I'll buy both in short order. LOL...

 

How exactly are you "syncing" your hotas? Just touch controller position relative to the VR pilot?

 

Also, how do you map keys to the touch controlerrs? Is it as simple as just using the standard interface? I want to map a hide pilot key to one.

 

The touch controllers can sense when you extend your index finger . Extend it , touch for example your throttle , and compare to what you see in VR .

I don't at this point use the touch controllers for anything else in DCS . I use a trackball parked behind and above the throttle , making it easy to find "blind"

Edited February 26, 2019 by Svsmokey

[Harlikwin]

Aha!

 

Nice trick actually.

 

I was using dual mice next to the throttle and stick when they were on my desk since that was easy to do. Now I can't with T/S mounted with the Fox mounts. I was using the mouse right in front of the mount, but now that I have a ton of room I though, why not experiment again. Seemed to be about as as easy to grab the controller as a mouse.

[DutchCoolHand]

I have only been flying in VR for a few days and I find it so immersive that I find myself reaching for buttons in the cockpit. especially when I need to switch between AA and AG mode. I think with PointControl that Miles is developing it will get very close. He even says that he thinks it will be in short term solution as VR developers are working on "VR Hands"

 

Another example of immersion is that I want to put my left elbow on the canopy rail for support, I had it happen now a few times I move to do it and my elbow "falls" down as there is nothing to support it.:) I do believe that you can influence immersion, to help with the motion sickness I lean my head into the turns or if I make a loop. It helps to give your brain the actual sensation of being in that position. My wife said she will make a video of my flying in VR, it looks quite funny from the outside.

[Mr_sukebe]

I picture the solution being based on eye tracking. Look at a control with your eye, the used a HOTAS button/switch to action.

[DeltaMike]

There are things you do by sight and things you do by feel. Brief time I was flying irl I never looked at the yoke and seldom looked at the throttle or flaps switch. For the th ings you actually look at (radios, nav system) a VR pointing device is fine and I find that the natural finger movements of the oculus controllers works for me. Personally I think it would be helpful to have one panel where I can find a landing gear lever and a flaps switch by feel. I don't think it has to be in the exact position -- you aren't looking -- so an Arduino box on a RAM mount would work.

 

For the F18 for example I think the answer would be to get a 3D printer file for the left hand panel, and some switch handles that'll feel right enough, rest should be over-the-counter

Edited February 28, 2019 by DeltaMike

[Harlikwin]

I picture the solution being based on eye tracking. Look at a control with your eye, the used a HOTAS button/switch to action.

 

Actually not a bad idea, I guess it depends on how good the eye tracking is and if DCS would implement it... Definitely Less immersive IMO though.

[Harlikwin]

I think Miles Point Device is gonna be the the next best thing.

 

I agree, near term this looks like the best thing going. Hopefully followed by captoglove coupled to the pilot 3D model arm.

[Svsmokey]

I have only been flying in VR for a few days and I find it so immersive that I find myself reaching for buttons in the cockpit. especially when I need to switch between AA and AG mode. I think with PointControl that Miles is developing it will get very close. He even says that he thinks it will be in short term solution as VR developers are working on "VR Hands"

 

Another example of immersion is that I want to put my left elbow on the canopy rail for support, I had it happen now a few times I move to do it and my elbow "falls" down as there is nothing to support it.:) I do believe that you can influence immersion, to help with the motion sickness I lean my head into the turns or if I make a loop. It helps to give your brain the actual sensation of being in that position. My wife said she will make a video of my flying in VR, it looks quite funny from the outside.

 

Yesterday i found myself trying to shade an instrument with my hand :)