Getting on trim and speed for AoA

[markturner1960]

Hi, having a little difficulty getting this right quickly and easily....I can do it after a lot of frigging around, but seem to spend too much time chasing the correct combination of trim and speed etc. As a result, I seem to end up inputting too much trim in either direction - is there a way to see how much you inputted and also, how can you quickly reset the trim to zero, to try starting again when you have confused yourself as to how much has been inputted?

 

Should I also have flaps on auto when doing this ? Or another setting ?

 

Whats the quickest and best way to get yourself on speed and all the brackets lined up ?

 

Thanks !

[will-]

 

This training mission is also in game and you can follow the instructions from there for more precise help.

Edited January 26, 2019 by will-

[Svsmokey]

The biggest thing that helped me was delaying flap deployment to under 200 kts .

[Darcwaynard]

Resetting trim to 0 after be close to 10 units of nose up trim would land you in the drink pretty quick.

 

Flaps full down with gear at 250 knots. Trim response in auto is not significant enough.

I keep my throttle at idle and trim up carefully. Short presses. Check your FCS page, I want to say you'll be around 8 - 10 units nose up once you're all trimmed out (give or take). Once you get around 150 knots add some power and finish trimming to on speed and level. Should be around 130-135 knots. Practice practice practice. Watch Wags youtube videos.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Darcwaynard

[Czar66]

With the support of those who commented before of course, watch the link Will posted.

 

Nitty and gritty, this is how I do: flaps half, gear and hook down before any trimming attempt. Keeping in mind that when the hornet turns, the nose sinks so when leveling out again it will be all different in trimming, so keep half the action on the stick at least.

 

When you're feeling good and before 3nm DME, full flaps and trim her. Don't chase the speed vector with trim, you do that with power. What you trim is where your nose is pointed at which needs to be above the horizon obviously.

 

I bet you know many of this and what I wrote may make more sense in my head than written down.

 

Cheers and have good sorties.

[victorlima01]

I think with the last update trimming has become a lot smoother and faster for me. Depending on weight 9-11 unites of trim will get me dead-center on the E-bracket. Since you can't feel stick pressure in a sim I think it's good practice to leave the FCS page on either DDI so you can quickly reference what you're trimming for. IIRC in the real plane as soon as you take your thumb off the trim switch you'll get a flashing number on the HUD which is really the AOA you're trimmed for. But don't quote me on that.

 

Regards,

VML

[DeltaMike]

I do not understand what's the problem, it's not harder than in c172.

 

Transition from flight to landing config:

 

Thrust - IDLE

√ Speed <250 kias

Flaps - FULL

Landing gear - DOWN

*Apply forward stick pressure to maintain level flight*

*When you feel back stick pressure is required to maintain level flight, trim slowly up to maintain level flight*

*Apply throttle to arrest deceleration*

*When VV inside E bracket, stop trimming, use throttle to maintain level flight*

 

Not really a rocket science.

 

This, but I think it's tricky, the model doesn't give you much wiggle room on the slow side, you don't have a lot of cues, and it takes a second or two for the engine to spool up. it helps to anticipate what the plane is going to do before it does it. It feels like I'm doing all three at once (easing in throttle, easing back on the stick, working the trim).

[Flamin_Squirrel]

This, but I think it's tricky, the model doesn't give you much wiggle room on the slow side, you don't have a lot of cues, and it takes a second or two for the engine to spool up. it helps to anticipate what the plane is going to do before it does it. It feels like I'm doing all three at once (easing in throttle, easing back on the stick, working the trim).

 

You'd have to do that in a C172 also :)

[markturner1960]

Thanks guys , will give all that a go.....

 

Can you tell me how to remove or recenter the trim inputs to zero easily ( if I need to) ? IE is there a "reset" action?

 

I am sure it is pretty easy once you know how, just needed a little help to shortcut the process.

 

 

thanks again

[markturner1960]

Awesome, just tried it out as advised and nailed it first time....thanks !!

[maxTRX]

I do not understand what's the problem, it's not harder than in c172.

 

Transition from flight to landing config:

 

Thrust - IDLE

√ Speed <250 kias

Flaps - FULL

Landing gear - DOWN

*Apply forward stick pressure to maintain level flight*

*When you feel back stick pressure is required to maintain level flight, trim slowly up to maintain level flight*

*Apply throttle to arrest deceleration*

*When VV inside E bracket, stop trimming, use throttle to maintain level flight*

 

Not really a rocket science.[/quote

 

Absolutely! Once you enter PA mode in C172 and FCS blends in nicely :doh:

[Deano87]

He was just equating it with the difficulty of getting a C172 properly trimmed in approach config, not suggesting that they both fly the same. I agree with him though. Getting the Hornet trimmed on speed is the easiest bit of the whole carrier landing thing. For reference I find that about 2.5 secs of nose up trim seems to get me where I need to be

Edited January 27, 2019 by Deano87

[maxTRX]

He was just equating it with the difficulty of getting a C172 properly trimmed in approach config, not suggesting that they both fly the same. I agree with him though. Getting the Hornet trimmed on speed is the easiest bit of the whole carrier landing thing. For reference I find that about 2.5 secs of nose up trim seems to get me where I need to be

 

I know... What was I thinking? Actually transition from UA to PA in DCS Hornet is kind of similar to C172:cry:

[Darcwaynard]

Thanks guys , will give all that a go.....

 

Can you tell me how to remove or recenter the trim inputs to zero easily ( if I need to) ? IE is there a "reset" action?

 

I am sure it is pretty easy once you know how, just needed a little help to shortcut the process.

 

 

thanks again

 

I think fasted way to reset trim would be to gear up and flaps to auto. FCS will pretty much trim you back to level flight automatically afterwards.

 

Also remember that the trim responds differently relative to whether you are configured dirty or clean.

[sk000tch]

He was just equating it with the difficulty of getting a C172 properly trimmed in approach config, not suggesting that they both fly the same. I agree with him though. Getting the Hornet trimmed on speed is the easiest bit of the whole carrier landing thing. For reference I find that about 2.5 secs of nose up trim seems to get me where I need to be

 

Having never flown a real hornet but having plenty of 172 hours, I don't really agree. I'm not sure it really matters but other than having wings there's not much similar. The hornet is unique. The 172 trims for pitch, and the difference between cruise and approach speeds are about 30kts?

 

I agree that its not difficult as-is, though I can see how others would disagree. I believe there is supposed to a HUD indication of trim position isn't there? That would make things easier. I believe the real jet is less sensitive as well, the current FM is way too pitchy in landing config. But its fine, bigger priorities.

 

Ironically I think the hornets probably easier to land? I mean, there's more to do and it happens much faster, but so long as you are decent stick & rudder there are tools to correct deviation in altitude or speed. About 10,000ft too high? Np, role her over nose down till you're where you want to be, pull and hit the brakes. Not a choice in a 172, if you're high on approach you can cross controls and slip, but that's a far cry from a barn door that pops up off the roof. Civ aircraft also don't have a handy velocity vector to point at the runway, and very few aircraft, military included, will take 700fpm landings.

 

The 16 should be a ton of fun, and very different. The thing I struggle with in sims is not having the butt sensor. You can't feel the plane. It makes greasing a landing and holding the nose gear up difficult, for me at least.

 

Anyway, to OP - the best advice has already been given. Watch the videos, fly around trimmed up practicing 180 degree turns, practice cruise to trim while holding altitude, etc. Its all about the throttle, constant adjustments but you've got to practice so you know what's happening, as you really need to be proactive about it (small things like adding a little gas before turning base, etc).

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I think the point was that many aircraft get a pitch up moment from lowering flaps. A C172 being high wing is probably not the best example as I don't remember it being a particular issue (it's been a several years since I've flown one).

[Lex Talionis]

All aircraft pilot controlled trim works the same way (required pilot shiz is the same ). Trim hasn't changed, just the way it has been pictorialy represented in various aircraft. It's probably more that untill now, no one really cared about it and/or utilized to the level of acuracy landing on the boat requires.

 

 

Practice this:

When: 5,000 feet, fully configured, lvl flight, on speed.

Then: Speed up to 200 knots, trim for the new airspeed while maintaining lvl flight.

Then: slow back down to on-speed, trim for new airspeed while maintaining lvl flight

Repeat and increase the transition with increased proficiency.

 

When ya get that then start:

When: 5,000 feet, clean, lvl flight, 350 kts

Then: power idle speed brake out, decelerate through 250kts fully configure, power as required, intercept on-speed, all while trimming and maintaining lvl flight.

Then: power MRT, clean up, intercept 350, all while trimming and maintaining lvl flight.

Repeat and increase the transition with increased proficiency.

 

Try and maintain +/-100 feet and +/- 10 deg desired heading, while doing this exercise.

 

Hope it helps :)

Edited January 28, 2019 by Lex Talionis

[sk000tch]

@sk000tch: C172 trims for AoA. You can install aftermarket AoA indicator of any type (precision may wary) and see yourself.

 

With flaps 40 and minimum speed C172 descents "almost vertically". 10000ft too high is not really a problem.

 

I agree HUD with VV is great help. Current FM is much better than initial one which was way too rigid on trim.

 

ehhhh I don't disagree, but its about purpose. In a 172 or any other GA you trim to relieve control pressure for given speed, vertical velocity, W&B etc. We are mixing physics with piloting. I agree its not hard to slow a 172 down we are talking performance. I have spent an absurd amount of time pushing 172/182/205/208s. As a CFI, but especially as an elevator driver trading rides for jumps flying skydivers to 13k and back 30 times a day. That's max performance climb in a gutted plane (just pilot seat and jumpers siting on floor), drop 800-1000 lbs and max performance descent, reload, repeat. CHT is high from the climb so can't shock cool the engines, but still beat the jumpers down. If we were busy I could sustain probably 3,500 fpm, dirty, 45 degrees nose down. Insane flying but honestly I"m just guessing because the VSI pins at 2k. Hornet will do the descent in what? 10-15 seconds?

 

And lex, dude, whether on a boat or runway pilots still take pride in their skill, whether its 3-wire or hitting the numbers, squeezing an extra 100fpm out of a skydive plane or save a few thousand lbs of fuel in big iron they most definitely care about accuracy and precision. And there are as many different trim systems as there are airplanes. Old school jack screws or trim tabs vs actually, the hornet doesn't even have trim surfaces. The FBW system continuously calculates control surface actuator movement based on AoA, sideslip angle, pitch angle, density, yaw rate, pitch rate, pitch angle, yaw angle, thrust, current actuator position of the stabilator, aileron, rudder and leading/trailing edge flap positions, against a flight model that evolved over 30 years. Its worth googling, just be prepared for math. The airplane got better as the math got better and flight models improved. That's a long way away from a little metal trim tab the size of a playing card, that exerts an opposite force and relieves control pressure...

[Lex Talionis]

 

And lex, dude, whether on a boat or runway pilots still take pride in their skill, whether its 3-wire or hitting the numbers, squeezing an extra 100fpm out of a skydive plane or save a few thousand lbs of fuel in big iron they most definitely care about accuracy and precision. And there are as many different trim systems as there are airplanes. Old school jack screws or trim tabs vs actually, the hornet doesn't even have trim surfaces. The FBW system continuously calculates control surface actuator movement based on AoA, sideslip angle, pitch angle, density, yaw rate, pitch rate, pitch angle, yaw angle, thrust, current actuator position of the stabilator, aileron, rudder and leading/trailing edge flap positions, against a flight model that evolved over 30 years. Its worth googling, just be prepared for math. The airplane got better as the math got better and flight models improved. That's a long way away from a little metal trim tab the size of a playing card, that exerts an opposite force and relieves control pressure...

 

 

I hear ya. Yes the mechanical operation may have changed, but as it is utilized by the pilot (for those that are pilot operable) it is transparent. The front seat stick actuating meat puppet "trims" for the same thing regardless the aircraft or how it is mechanically realized.

 

As to my opening paragraph, I wasn't trying to contest anyone's desire for accuracy. My opening statement was an assumption in the context of this game and how i have seen the majority of players play it (including myself. I have no delusions of grandeur ). Wasn't meant for anyone to take personally, my apologizes.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Lex Talionis

[will-]

All aircraft pilot controlled trim works the same way (required pilot shiz is the same ). Trim hasn't changed, just the way it has been pictorialy represented in various aircraft. It's probably more that untill now, no one really cared about it and/or utilized to the level of acuracy landing on the boat requires.

 

 

Practice this:

When: 5,000 feet, fully configured, lvl flight, on speed.

Then: Speed up to 200 knots, trim for the new airspeed while maintaining lvl flight.

Then: slow back down to on-speed, trim for new airspeed while maintaining lvl flight

Repeat and increase the transition with increased proficiency.

 

When ya get that then start:

When: 5,000 feet, clean, lvl flight, 350 kts

Then: power idle speed brake out, decelerate through 250kts fully configure, power as required, intercept on-speed, all while trimming and maintaining lvl flight.

Then: power MRT, clean up, intercept 350, all while trimming and maintaining lvl flight.

Repeat and increase the transition with increased proficiency.

 

Try and maintain +/-100 feet and +/- 10 deg desired heading, while doing this exercise.

 

Hope it helps :)

 

thank you.

[sk000tch]

I hear ya. Yes the mechanical operation may have changed, but as it is utilized by the pilot (for those that are pilot operable) it is transparent. The front seat stick actuating meat puppet "trims" for the same thing regardless the aircraft or how it is mechanically realized.

 

As to my opening paragraph, I wasn't trying to contest anyone's desire for accuracy. My opening statement was an assumption in the context of this game and how i have seen the majority of players play it (including myself. I have no delusions of grandeur ). Wasn't meant for anyone to take personally, my apologizes.

 

No worries, didn't mean to come off like a dick either. I can't help it

 

For those who were at all intrigued by skydive piloting story, found an Otter do 12k to grass in 4 minutes. He flew a long downwind, we would corkscrew straight to base for a long fast final, cross control for drag to slow down (e.g. stick/yoke left right rudder to floor) and hit the same little worn down patch of grass every time. Wasn't a moving boat, but the parties were better. btw attitude indicator looks broken in this (useless anyway), check the horizon and altimeter